FOSMM Whatsapp Thread as of 29 October 2016

29/10/2016, 12:45 AM – Tawanda Fosmm: Whats cooking
29/10/2016, 2:59 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: @CitizenHeru: Im not privy to Smoothnest details
29/10/2016, 5:20 AM – Tapiwa Chitambo: Tried searching online and came up with nothing significant.
29/10/2016, 9:02 AM – Dziva Mawere added ‪+263 77 728 7847‬
29/10/2016, 5:40 AM – Tawanda Fosmm: Any1 who wants the whole smoothfest transaction…
29/10/2016, 5:42 AM – Tapiwa Chitambo: ✋
29/10/2016, 5:43 AM – Tawanda Fosmm: Ok lets do it
29/10/2016, 5:43 AM – Tawanda Fosmm:
29/10/2016, 5:44 AM – Tawanda Fosmm:
29/10/2016, 5:45 AM – Tawanda Fosmm:
29/10/2016, 5:50 AM – Tawanda Fosmm: Here is the summary that i made of these events

2003-4 SMOOTHFEST SCANDAL–In a politically calculated move,Manikai and Dube,owners of a briefcase company SMOOTHFEST, apply for a zw$1billion loan from the local FBC bank.

According to the application,the loan was meant to acquire shares in SARE.At the time,SARE was owned by ZIMRE,NSSA and M&S (a ZANU PF owned company ).The loan is financed by the Ministry of Labour through the RBZ which is directed to deposit the amount into FBC bank specifically designated to be a loan to Smoothfest.The minister who authorized the transaction was the then Minister of Labour July Moyo.In their application for the loan,Smoothfest specifically mentions the zw$1billion as the amount they,re applying for.Mawere through ARL owned 23% shares in FBC whilst ZANU pf owned 26%.

Mawere expressed reservations against the high profile corrupt transaction but since he was not involved in the day to day running of the bank he could only do little and the application sailed through.Smoothfest,,it is then discovered,was a briefcase company and had no security to back up the loan but nonetheless, succeed in its application since the funds were not coming directly from FBC but were RBZ money being formally transacted out through them hence the bank could claim no loss.The amount was used to raise money through the purchase of shares in M&S,a ZANU PF company which owns shares in SARE alongside ZIMRE and NASSA

The funds raised are then diverted for Emmerson Munangagwas campaign for the VP post.An earlier version of the story is that the funds were meant to fund raise for the party’s congress in Masvingo December 2003 ZANU PF congress ,but this was proven to be untrue.A year later,in 2004 after the appointment of Gono as RBZ governor,a probe is launched into the scandal,Mawere is called in to offer a statement through an affidavit.Mawere confirms his innocence and exposes the real culprits in the matter. As is with most corruption cases,the matter is wrapped under the rags.The amount was never repaid to the Ministry of Labour either.
29/10/2016, 6:23 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Smoothnest not Smoothfest

M&S Investments was involved not ZANU PF owned M&S Syndicate
29/10/2016, 6:24 AM – Shingai Ndoro: The owners of Smoothnest are not correctly indicated in the first paragraph
29/10/2016, 6:28 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: hw does a lizard or duck get involved in such transactions?
29/10/2016, 6:29 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: there has been a long run plot to blame everything on Mnangagwa
29/10/2016, 6:30 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: yet Ngwena has never been the 1 center of power.
29/10/2016, 6:31 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: we must analyze issues objectively and apportion blame where its factually due not to just throw blame arnd
29/10/2016, 6:31 AM – Shingai Ndoro: You are responding defensively to what you haven’t read.

Have you read the primary documents?
29/10/2016, 6:32 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: you are assuming i havent read thats a wrong assumption
29/10/2016, 6:33 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: in any case the docs were not written by God but men and women of the flash who are fallible. as such we can not talk as of the docs were written by God
29/10/2016, 6:34 AM – Shingai Ndoro: How about dissecting each of the documents?
29/10/2016, 6:34 AM – Tapiwa Chitambo: So what objective argument are u advocating for,? It seems you already formed an opinion.
29/10/2016, 6:34 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: in any case a lizard cant influence financial transanctions
29/10/2016, 6:35 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: i dont need whole day to get the gist of a document
29/10/2016, 6:35 AM – Shingai Ndoro: You are unwilling to discuss each of the documents.

Line by line. Paragraph by paragraph.
29/10/2016, 6:36 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: im unwilling to take the G40 bait
29/10/2016, 6:37 AM – Shingai Ndoro: You are associating this group with G40?
29/10/2016, 6:37 AM – Tawanda Fosmm: You can trace the money back to munangagwa
29/10/2016, 6:37 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: clearly this is abt decampaigning Ngwena
29/10/2016, 6:38 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: im associating the approach u have taken as a G40 aproach
29/10/2016, 6:38 AM – Tawanda Fosmm: Ngwena was involved..if you read all the docs
29/10/2016, 6:40 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: so if a doc says something its true? I have seen docs saying mudhara Mawere corruptly acquired SMM. so thats true simply bcz a doc says so?
29/10/2016, 6:40 AM – Tapiwa Chitambo: Why don’t u share
29/10/2016, 6:43 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: bcz m not gullible to blv smthng simply bcz a document says so
29/10/2016, 6:53 AM – ‪+260 97 7508519‬: Documents do not compile themselves. Some one with a pen, paper and interests and agenda
29/10/2016, 6:57 AM – Dziva Mawere: Morning. You state as fact that a document exists supporting the proposition that SMM was corruptly acquired. A request has been made for you to share it. I can’t see any conceivable harm that can be occasioned to you by simply sharing it.

Life and common sense has taught me that facts have legs and if respected have the capacity to take us even to uncomfortable zones.

I should like to believe that you are an independent and detached interlocutor who would see evil in any attempt to clothe facts to suit certain narratives.
29/10/2016, 7:06 AM – Shingai Ndoro: It’s not possible to find common ground with those who don’t have a disposition for evidence, facts and proof.
29/10/2016, 7:08 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: i have more than written docs saying MMawedd corruptly acquired SMM
29/10/2016, 7:08 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Share them. I dare you.
29/10/2016, 7:09 AM – Dziva Mawere: It goes beyond common ground, common sense, logic and reason. Imagine what would happen if wishes were horses, the destination would be characterised by people with no regard for the truth and subscribe to the adage that the end justifies the means.
29/10/2016, 7:09 AM – Dziva Mawere: Indeed. Bring the documents on to this shared space.
29/10/2016, 7:09 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: vamwe vanototi SMM was MMawere’s ill gotten wealth
29/10/2016, 7:10 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Don’t be like a rattle snake
29/10/2016, 7:10 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: so this is abt simply producing a doc then if u can provide a doc then the doc contents are true
29/10/2016, 7:11 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: u talk as if a document is such a hard thing to provide
29/10/2016, 7:11 AM – Dziva Mawere: The use of faceless and nameless people is always an escape route for intellectual cowardice. I would not have expected you to attempt to sink to the level suggested by your utterances.
29/10/2016, 7:11 AM – Shingai Ndoro: May you refrain making claims that you can’t substantiate?

You are hiding behind “Zvinonzi…”

It’s a tendency of those without a relationship with truth and use anonymity to peddle falsehoods.
29/10/2016, 7:13 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: documents placing SMM on specification,Statutory Instruments suggest there was corruption hence the specification of SMM.
29/10/2016, 7:13 AM – Shingai Ndoro: The document is then dissected and examined to test for veracity.
29/10/2016, 7:14 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Share your documents here.

If you use “suggest” that means “kufungidzira”
29/10/2016, 7:14 AM – Dziva Mawere: Mnangagwa is a public officer. He is a Minister of Justice and an appointed VP whose public posture on corruption is now well established. The fact that public funds provided the ancestry of an opaque private transaction must worry you. Imagine he became President and doesn’t know the distinction between public and private funds.
29/10/2016, 7:16 AM – Dziva Mawere: I think you are on to something here. Specification was in 2004 and acquisition was in 1996. Please link the timeline in relation to the alleged facts.
29/10/2016, 7:18 AM – Dziva Mawere: It is becoming interesting to use Jones’ prism to revisit specification and what could have informed it outside the four corners of a hypocritical corruption cover up of the century.
29/10/2016, 7:18 AM – Shingai Ndoro: You are just like a rattle snake and you are not even prepared to have your documents subjected to scrutiny.

I’m sure you are not one to seek evidentially-supported truth.
29/10/2016, 7:20 AM – Dziva Mawere: A rattle snake is better because it is a snake after all. A rational person would expect a human being to occupy a higher moral pedestal.
29/10/2016, 7:22 AM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: Oh jmusara is Jones Musara your Twitter buddy?
29/10/2016, 7:22 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: Some of you guys are so hostile to disagreement
29/10/2016, 7:24 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: I did not even accuse or condemn Mawere..i simply said there are documents which accuse Mawere of corruptly acquiring and operating SMM
29/10/2016, 7:25 AM – Dziva Mawere: We have exchanged tweets. It is self-evident from the tweets that he has no interest in accepting any facts that contradict his chosen destination. Just read the tweets and you will soon realize that there are people who are motivated by a sinister worldview.
29/10/2016, 7:25 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: just saying that drew lots of condemnation.
29/10/2016, 7:25 AM – Dziva Mawere: Please spare us explanations because the alleged documents can do a better job.
29/10/2016, 7:28 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬:
29/10/2016, 7:28 AM – Dziva Mawere: Let us be evidence based. You can’t possibly seek to be a friend of a juristic person, SMM, and then proceed to use invented facts. Why would Mnangagwa be hurt by facts of events that have occurred and that may provide a plausible explanation of the lies and deceit that has characterised the SMM matter.
29/10/2016, 7:29 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: that is just 1 among thousands of documents available accusing Mawere of corrupting acquiring and operating SMM
29/10/2016, 7:37 AM – Dziva Mawere: Before dealing with this document and the veracity of the allegations, it is important that we recognise that its author is also a member of this forum.

This documents makes no reference to acquisition.

The currency in question is rands. The jurisdiction is South Africa.

The purported injured party is SMM.

Applying logic if allowed to be relevant, please tell us under what kind of constitutional order would SMM sue its shareholder?

What would have happened to allow a son to sue his parent for fraud?

SMM is a Zimbabwean private company at the material time. What would be the interest and role of a constitutional government in prosecuting SMM’s shareholder?

If you were the Minister of Justice would it not be your priority job to challenge the madness prosecuted in the name of a constitutional democracy?

If this travesty of justice was perpetrated in your name, would you not be offended by the abuse of your name let alone support any character implicated for an office where public trust is in the mix?
29/10/2016, 7:39 AM – Dziva Mawere: Am I reading the same document? The acquisition of SMM was in 1996. And let us dissect the references to the alleged illegality and the interested parties in such alleged mischief and their locus standi in the invented dispute.
29/10/2016, 7:42 AM – Dziva Mawere: Why would South Africa have jurisdiction on facts and circumstances that occurred outside its borders. No acquisition was done in SA and no acquisition related to the acquisition could be relevant for any competent SA court.
29/10/2016, 7:44 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: anyway none of us birthed minerals like asbestos..the minerals, the land belongs to the state with gvnt as a trustee for the pple. as such no 1 person shld have monopoly of ownership of land and minerals. Mawere and others who have benefitted from Zimbabwe minerals have to share the proceeds with the people. It is alleged SMM was indebted to the state hence state had to temporarily take it over. Documents to that effect exist and its common knowledgd
29/10/2016, 7:47 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Sometimes in debates around natural resources this absurdity of someone ‘owning’ said resources is oftentimes ignored
29/10/2016, 7:48 AM – ‪+263 73 698 5068‬: Dcż gmkjy
29/10/2016, 7:52 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: so there was indeed a time when Zanu PF Gvnt recoginzed you VaMawere as the owner of SMM? Were you a sole owner?
29/10/2016, 8:10 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Is a newspaper report a primary document?
29/10/2016, 8:11 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Since this was a court case, what was the end of it?
29/10/2016, 8:14 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Nobody uses the same toxic language about Zimplats, Mimosa, Unki, etc.

Is it because they are non-Africans and Africans can’t own anything?
29/10/2016, 8:20 AM – Shingai Ndoro: This kind of thinking is grossly crass!
29/10/2016, 8:25 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: In what way?
29/10/2016, 8:27 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: We do. All the time. We just don’t yet have the power to change things. Yet
29/10/2016, 8:39 AM – Shingai Ndoro: 1. When has mining land been owned by the state?

2. Who ever claimed to have given birth to a natural resource?

3. What is monopoly of ownership when it’s a private company?

4. What is sharing with people?

5. State indebtedness was a false excuse and we have primary documents shared here to prove that.

6. Are newspaper reports primary documents?
29/10/2016, 8:42 AM – Dziva Mawere:
29/10/2016, 8:43 AM – Dziva Mawere: It is fact that I was never a shareholder of SMM Zimbabwe
29/10/2016, 8:43 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: All these questions bear no relationship to the characterisation of Musara’s comment as crass. All legitimate questions, which should have been asked rather than launching such a broadside against a new member.
29/10/2016, 8:43 AM – Dziva Mawere: Please join me in welcoming Hon Holder to this group
29/10/2016, 8:44 AM – Wildfire 1873: Welcome Hon Holder
29/10/2016, 8:46 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Pamberi neZanu PF!
Pamberi na vaMugabe
Abasha chikonyoka!
29/10/2016, 8:47 AM – Dziva Mawere:
29/10/2016, 8:47 AM – Dziva Mawere: He is the MP of Zvishavane and by default a friend of SMM. It would be beneficial to assume that he doesn’t know what we may take for granted as common cause.
29/10/2016, 8:52 AM – ‪+27 73 120 4657‬: I may not be well versed with the facts sorrounding the seizure of SMM but what i know, by experience, is that zanu pf does not respect private property rights…with this in mind,im tempted to believe mawere story until zanu proves otherwise in a court of law according to an open and democratic way
29/10/2016, 8:53 AM – Dziva Mawere: Are you suggesting an alternative to constitutionalism? No company can operate in a jurisdiction without the force of law and in accordance with its prescripts. Mining licences are granted in terms of the law. Their validity and enforceability are prescribed and so is the fiscal regime. No suggestion is made that SMM had violated any mineral rights laws let alone failed to discharge its obligations to any community. The facts of SMM are instructive. Let them guide a rational debate.
29/10/2016, 8:57 AM – Dziva Mawere: Rugare as a lawyer you must know and ought to know that ZANU-PF is a club of members with no interest or jurisdiction over the affairs of government. It is the case that its natural members join a government and in that capacity such actors become accountable to the public.

Even the most ardent regime change cannot argue that an abuse of public power is equivalent to any mischief that may be occasioned on members of the ruling party.
29/10/2016, 8:58 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: I read his argument to say that within the context of these discussions let’s not lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day, mineral resources belong to everyone, and the state has an obligation to ensure that private interests don’t the trump public interest in preserving the resources for the people. That the state in our case is corrupt doesn’t change this rider.
29/10/2016, 9:02 AM – Dziva Mawere: I am not sure whether any facts exist or ever existed supporting the proposition that the actions and decisions made by various government actors was motivated by a dispute regarding mineral rights or the ownership of SMM.

Perhaps you may wish to unpack the purported dispute with facts and then the relevance of the utterances to the issues in the public square
29/10/2016, 9:12 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: You can’t posit a ‘dispute of facts’ then ask me to unpack it. That’s your argument. The point l am making is that saying, as Musara did, that natural resources belong to Zimbabwe and the state must act as a trustee for the people IS NOT, as was suggested, crass.
29/10/2016, 9:14 AM – TinasheMpasiri: Hon Holder welcome to the bank of knowledge.
29/10/2016, 9:29 AM – Tapiwa Chitambo: Welcome hon
29/10/2016, 9:37 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Where does it say in the constitution or the relevant mineral law that “minerals belong to everyone”?

Who is everyone?

How does “everyone” exercise it’s rights?

What are the obligations of “everyone”?

This is a tyrannical leftist and commandist kind of language that respects no property rights.
29/10/2016, 9:38 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Please let’s be factual and legal.

Where is it that the state is a trustee of land and mining rights?
29/10/2016, 9:40 AM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: That’s the legal position the state holds all for and on behalf of the citizenry
29/10/2016, 9:44 AM – Dziva Mawere: I hear you but where is this strange argument comingstrangecoming from?
29/10/2016, 10:03 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Please quote the relevant section of the constitution
29/10/2016, 10:04 AM – Shingai Ndoro: The constitution is the supreme law of the land and no leftist wishful thinking that violates property rights can surpass that.
29/10/2016, 10:07 AM – Dziva Mawere: It is always the case that the relationship between government and minerals is not understood in its proper context. Which came first? Some believe that minerals are created by government actors when their existence have nothing to do with the government.
29/10/2016, 10:10 AM – Shingai Ndoro: I’m still waiting for the constitutional section that licenses the state to violate property rights in the name of “people,” “everyone,” and “trustee.”
29/10/2016, 10:11 AM – Dziva Mawere: You will have to wait for a very long time for a nullity
29/10/2016, 10:11 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: You are a very patient man.
29/10/2016, 10:12 AM – Shingai Ndoro: I have noticed that people lie in the name of the state, President and people.

This is why I said it’s crass!!!
29/10/2016, 10:13 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Does it please you to make a false claim about the state and people when you are such an educated legal mind?

Tino usadaro wena.
29/10/2016, 10:13 AM – TinasheMpasiri:
29/10/2016, 10:14 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What claim did l make?
29/10/2016, 10:15 AM – Shingai Ndoro: The past week was such an eventful one at the JSC interviews for the high court judges.

I realized that senior legal minds can conduct themselves like interns.
29/10/2016, 10:15 AM – Shingai Ndoro: I have posed questions to your earlier posts in which you made the claims.
29/10/2016, 10:16 AM – Dziva Mawere: What is the interest of the state in minerals
29/10/2016, 10:18 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: I have made but one point all morning, that Dr Musara’s viewpoint was not crass. I am unaware of a constitutional provision in support of it anyhow.
29/10/2016, 10:19 AM – TinasheMpasiri: Minerals are the Creator’s endowment and only have value through human effort.

They are hidden beneath the earth so that man finds and not government. Where does this creature called government reside?
29/10/2016, 10:20 AM – Shingai Ndoro: This is still to be favoured with a response.
29/10/2016, 10:21 AM – Shingai Ndoro: This is also still not favoured with a response.
29/10/2016, 10:22 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Tino
I don’t know if this was invisible to you.
29/10/2016, 10:26 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Creator or nature?

Let’s not be religious here as it provokes the secularist and scientific disposition in some of us.
29/10/2016, 10:30 AM – Dziva Mawere: Is the central argument about the use of the term crass?
29/10/2016, 10:41 AM – Pamela Gwatidzo:
29/10/2016, 10:42 AM – Dziva Mawere:
29/10/2016, 10:47 AM – Shingai Ndoro: A law school is inherently and generically associated with sharp reasoning, discernment and judiciousness.

At its core or substructure is ferocious veracity of evidence and facts.

At the superstructure is a never die attachment and connection with causes for justice, truth, honour, freedom (liberty) and due process.
29/10/2016, 10:52 AM – Shingai Ndoro: A legal mind is a friend of both the weak and strong.

For the weak, the opportunity and hope for remedy and for the strong to avoid excesses at whim.
29/10/2016, 10:54 AM – Dziva Mawere: You know only yesterday we had a contested conversation on radio about the urgent need for a master class whose urgency and need is being fortified every minute by the content and context of deliberations. Is it not dunny that where wisdom is normally expected the reality may be its absence.

Many are educated and have certificates but what comes out suggests the opposite. How do we cure this mismatch and the squandered time on futile discourses?
29/10/2016, 11:09 AM – Shingai Ndoro: In my life and experiences I have come across professionals who are like bone collectors, are on the rampage to collect certificates.

Anyway let’s attend to the substantive issues not peddling of tyrannical leftist falsehoods and unconstitutional sentiments.

There is a motion at the parliament in two weeks time.
29/10/2016, 11:21 AM – Shingai Ndoro: PRINCIPLE: No person can be deprived of life (s48), liberty (s49, 51 & 52) or property (s71) without due process of law (s69, 70, 85 & 86)
29/10/2016, 11:21 AM – Dziva Mawere: Has anyone got a copy of the motion?
29/10/2016, 11:23 AM – Dziva Mawere: So simple and straightforward and self evident yet we create and endure institutions and actors who invest in undermining these rights
29/10/2016, 11:31 AM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: I understand we all for property rights but we must be objective here otherwise we end up being like the same system we intend to fight. It is my understanding that when we talk of natural resources, it must benefit beyond individuals but the nation @ large so i urge… We can agree to differ, let’s not suffocate others they have good points worth considering also.
29/10/2016, 11:40 AM – Shingai Ndoro: There is no one who has been suffocated here.

There are some false claims and those that openly violate the constitutional principles of life, liberty and property that has been questioned.
29/10/2016, 11:40 AM – TinasheMpasiri:
29/10/2016, 11:42 AM – Shingai Ndoro: There is no statement that should go unquestioned, unexamined and not interrogated using the constitutional principles.
29/10/2016, 11:45 AM – Dziva Mawere: What is and ought to be the role of the government in the affairs of man? If the role of the actors in government clothed with borrowed power is to limit access to resources created outside the four corners of the government, who would want to leave government?
29/10/2016, 11:47 AM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: I support the cause 100% but have a question to Mr Mawere. I understand just before the problems @ SMM you declined a provincial chair position in ZANU PF, how was this to affect SMM, to what extent where you involved in ZANU PF affairs, if you may clarify.
29/10/2016, 11:53 AM – TinasheMpasiri: I have come to learn and understand that Mutumwa Mawere left Zimbabwe in 1988, he in 1995 he came back to Africa and resides in the new South Africa. My understanding is that he has never been a member of ZANU PF
29/10/2016, 11:59 AM – Dziva Mawere: Thanks for the frequently asked question. I am not sure what led to what but all i can tell you that any left leaning idea of social and economic engineering is inherently biased against business and in favour of comrades in government.

Ordinarily one would expect ZANU-PF to know who is and who is not a member let alone who is and is not eligible for nomination and elections at all organs of the party. I was as surprised as you would have been to learn from the media of being elected to a position in an organisation that you were not a member and from a process conducted without your knowledge and consent. Remember at the time i was already a SA citizen and under the then laws, dual citizenship was prohibited. So in short, i had no position to decline and the error was accepted and corrected.
29/10/2016, 12:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: Are you familiar with the affairs of Smoothnest?
29/10/2016, 12:01 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: I understand he is on the platform and understand some of these things i have mentioned. He may bring clarity on this.
29/10/2016, 12:04 PM – ‪+263 77 459 5355‬: So might i be guided accordingly here, y is it zanu is at the center of every discussion as we have seen and are seeing everything that zanu lays its hands on is destined for failure ,so when we speak of the future i believe it is not necessary to put such ab organization in the equation is PLAIN WRONG, LEST OUR CHILDREN AND DESCENDANTS URINATE ON OUR GRAVES.
29/10/2016, 12:07 PM – Dziva Mawere: I am not sure whether we are still talking about the affairs of a government or ZANU-PF that has its own constitution and members?
29/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: That you brought into the picture but my question is not answered on provincial chair position. Is it true that your name was once mentioned for that position before the problems @ SMM.
29/10/2016, 12:08 PM – Dziva Mawere: May be you didn’t see this above:

Thanks for the frequently asked question. I am not sure what led to what but all i can tell you that any left leaning idea of social and economic engineering is inherently biased against business and in favour of comrades in government.

Ordinarily one would expect ZANU-PF to know who is and who is not a member let alone who is and is not eligible for nomination and elections at all organs of the party. I was as surprised as you would have been to learn from the media of being elected to a position in an organisation that you were not a member and from a process conducted without your knowledge and consent. Remember at the time i was already a SA citizen and under the then laws, dual citizenship was prohibited. So in short, i had no position to decline and the error was accepted and corrected.
29/10/2016, 12:09 PM – Shingai Ndoro: He has answered this by saying yes and he indicated that he informed them he wasn’t a member
29/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: Ok, clarified.
29/10/2016, 12:28 PM – Shingai Ndoro added ‪+263 77 283 7384‬
29/10/2016, 12:19 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Stanford Muchongwe, finance executive and active JCI member.
29/10/2016, 12:21 PM – ‪+263 77 283 7384‬: Thank you for the add.Appreciated.
29/10/2016, 12:22 PM – Dziva Mawere: Welcome Stanford
29/10/2016, 12:29 PM – TinasheMpasiri: Welcome Stanford
29/10/2016, 1:08 PM – ‪+27 73 120 4657‬ left
29/10/2016, 1:49 PM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Sad news people. Dr. Cephas Zinhumwe Executive Director NANGO is no more. I have just received the news now.
29/10/2016, 1:49 PM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Wrong platform sorry
29/10/2016, 4:34 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: By virtue of them belonging to a particular country minerals are therefore part of the national treasure,just as rivers cannot be owned by individuals,which is why the land belongs to the state,even if a company can be given mining rights,they are not entitled to retain the full proceeds,but have an obligation to share the loot
29/10/2016, 4:41 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Your understanding of public and private property is questionable.

Just because a human being was conceived and born of his/her parents, the parents don’t exercise rights over the child like a toy.

Just because the government registers a company for it to assume a juristic personality, and later licenses it for the respective business activities where relevant, the government doesn’t own the company.

Just because a mining company acquires mining rights from a license by government, it doesn’t mean the license or mining rights are subject for confiscation without due process.
29/10/2016, 4:45 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: I agree 100%
29/10/2016, 5:02 PM – Shingai Ndoro: 1. What is that you are calling a “national treasurer”?

2. You have rights around the area of a river in your private property. I can’t just come into your land to fish in a river passing through your private property.

3. You ignorantly claim that “…not entitled to the full proceeds, but have an obligation to share the loot”. What does this mean?
29/10/2016, 5:09 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Am i ready for labelling ignorant??
29/10/2016, 5:11 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: If the claim is ignorant then the labler must have all the answers by then
29/10/2016, 5:13 PM – Shingai Ndoro: We won’t go anywhere with such leftist expressions that have no respect for private property.

It’s sickening.
29/10/2016, 5:16 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Persons acquire mining rights.
29/10/2016, 5:17 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Either an individual or a corporate organisation can do that.
29/10/2016, 5:19 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Goes without saying
Persons natural or jurisdiction.
29/10/2016, 5:19 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: These arguments don’t ratiocinate
The premise and the conclusion are not necessarily related
29/10/2016, 5:19 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: *juristic
29/10/2016, 5:20 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Leftist? Left of what?
29/10/2016, 5:21 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Socialism/Communism

There is no respect for private property in there.
29/10/2016, 5:22 PM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: Natural resources are held by the state on behalf of the state there is a need to differentiate between the state and government
29/10/2016, 5:23 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: The Mines and Minerals Act of Zimbabwe vests all minerals in the President.
In an open society, the president is a functionary of the State.
29/10/2016, 5:23 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Saying that natural resources are owned by the nation and held in trust on behalf of the people by the state is not a leftist statement. When Britain nationalised mines, or when the USA government refused to let Dubai Ports International but US ports it was not leftist.
29/10/2016, 5:25 PM – Tawanda Fosmm: There is no communism here,even if you go to the deepest capitalist states,,there is no acquisition of minerals that goes beyond mining rights,,otherwise your ideas maybe accused of being anarchist and calling for cessation of sovereign territories
29/10/2016, 5:28 PM – Shingai Ndoro: May you provide relevant evidence to this claim.
29/10/2016, 5:30 PM – Shingai Ndoro: You can as well say that the Companies Act vests all the corporate rights in the president.
29/10/2016, 5:30 PM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: Sorry wanted to say for the citizenry
29/10/2016, 5:32 PM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: Maybe as a general point in whom does natural resources of a country vests.
29/10/2016, 5:32 PM – Shingai Ndoro: There has been socialist/communist tendency in treating private property and relating with business people.

It’s always the desire to confiscate and make them think they are under an environment of favour of the political class.
29/10/2016, 5:33 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Meaning?
29/10/2016, 5:33 PM – Shingai Ndoro: All natural resources are found in a piece of land, state or private land.
29/10/2016, 5:35 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: But the mineral Sir.
29/10/2016, 5:35 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Mines and mineral rights are as the same as the rights under an act of parliament
29/10/2016, 5:35 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: If you look again at the nature of the word soveregnity,,it is premised on land,claiming that a company exclusively should own the entirety of the mine might as well be translated to suggesting cessation
29/10/2016, 5:36 PM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: I think there is a lot of confusing of issues here, natural resources belong to the state and if we go on who is the state , the state isn’t the government
29/10/2016, 5:36 PM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: ODembare asisakhulumi, kudala batshayisa
29/10/2016, 5:36 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Who owned the minerals in SMM before the saga
29/10/2016, 5:36 PM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Sorry
29/10/2016, 5:37 PM – Shingai Ndoro: If minerals are found in my farm, nobody can acquire them over my farm land rights.
29/10/2016, 5:38 PM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: You have an improper understanding to to your act ,if you have no rights to claim those rights can vest in another person who has legal claims to the mineral there is a process though
29/10/2016, 5:39 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: The farm is overally state property,,thats why they can choose to buid a road or confiscate it when Minerals are found there and Pass it to a miner for rights
29/10/2016, 5:39 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Mistaken. Let’s have this discussion privately later.
In the box if you don’t mind.
29/10/2016, 5:39 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Not all farms are state lands
29/10/2016, 5:40 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Then unded which jurisdiction does a farm fall under,,the state or the farms
29/10/2016, 5:40 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: But in short…someone can peg mineral claims over your farm and pay compensation.
29/10/2016, 5:41 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Compensation for the land.
29/10/2016, 5:41 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Right now the gvt of Zimbabwe is pleading to Zimplats for a piece of land because the land belongs to Zimplats?
29/10/2016, 5:41 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Due process!!!
29/10/2016, 5:42 PM – Shingai Ndoro: A farm land can either be public or private property.
29/10/2016, 5:43 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Answer the question please
29/10/2016, 5:44 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: That’s not, strictly speaking, a correct statement of the law
29/10/2016, 5:46 PM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: That Is because the gvt has no legal basis for aqcuisition
29/10/2016, 5:46 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Underpinned by the position that only mining rights are what persons can own.
29/10/2016, 5:47 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: The mineral remains vested in the President, for and behalf of the State.
Or is it ideally
29/10/2016, 5:49 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Do you have exclusive mineral rights over my private land?
29/10/2016, 5:51 PM – Shingai Ndoro: You are mixing two things.

Land and mining rights.
29/10/2016, 5:51 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: I can yes.
29/10/2016, 5:51 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Do I?
Do you?
Does the state?
Why exclusive?
29/10/2016, 5:51 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Because the mineral does not necessarily accede to land.
29/10/2016, 5:53 PM – Shingai Ndoro: A person with mining rights acquires land rights too.

A person with land rights doesn’t have mining rights.

A person who want to acquire mining rights on a piece of land acquires both the land and mining rights.
29/10/2016, 5:54 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Exactly.
And it is enabled by the fact that no one owns minerals.
29/10/2016, 5:54 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: That’s not according to law as the area may be pegged for mining according to the laws of the land
29/10/2016, 5:56 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Have you read the Mines and Minerals Act?
29/10/2016, 5:58 PM – Shingai Ndoro: You own the unmined minerals once you have acquired the mining rights.

You have an obligation of paying royalties on your sales, income tax on your profit and VAT on your purchases.
29/10/2016, 5:59 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Let’s be very careful with our use of the word ‘own’
29/10/2016, 5:59 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Please read the Act referred to above first… I stand guided here.
29/10/2016, 5:59 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: Thank you
29/10/2016, 6:00 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Let’s just have someone upload it here.
29/10/2016, 6:00 PM – ‪+263 77 883 1939‬: So you’re arguing without full knowledge
29/10/2016, 6:01 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Just like we have other acts have been uploaded here.
29/10/2016, 6:06 PM – Shingai Ndoro: I have knowledge of it.

I only did not cite the relevant sections.
29/10/2016, 6:08 PM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: Ownership of land does not entitle ownership of mineral rights on that the land
29/10/2016, 6:08 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Let’s have the relevant act
29/10/2016, 6:09 PM – ‪+263 77 273 3028‬: Look at the the act its clear on that aspect
29/10/2016, 6:13 PM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Hon Holder most welcome.
29/10/2016, 6:29 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Be informed that:

1. Mining rights are subject to the constitutional

PRINCIPLE: No person can be deprived of life (s48), liberty (s49, 51 & 52) or property (s71) without due process of law (s69, 70, 85 & 86)

2. The mines and mineral rights act is under review to make it in line with the new constitution.

3. The ease of doing business review of laws may also look into that specific act.
29/10/2016, 6:31 PM – ‪+263 77 230 5960‬:
29/10/2016, 6:32 PM – ‪+263 77 230 5960‬: Except from the Act all rights to minerals vested in President..
29/10/2016, 6:36 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Meaning?
29/10/2016, 6:39 PM – ‪+263 77 230 5960‬: vest·ed, vest·ing, vests
1. To place (authority, property, or rights, for example) in the control of a person or group, especially to give someone an immediate right to present or future possession or enjoyment of (an estate, for example)
29/10/2016, 6:41 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Relate this with the constitution given that this is a 1961 Act
29/10/2016, 6:46 PM – ‪+263 77 230 5960‬: It really is neither here not there its vest in the Presidency the office not the President the individual . Its comes from a school of thought that as the President here is elected by all he represents all. You will find that this in a lot of our statutes ie reference to President
29/10/2016, 6:47 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Minerals are not the only natural resources.

Is this 1961 Act in line with the constitution?
29/10/2016, 6:48 PM – Shingai Ndoro: What does the constitution say about mineral rights?
29/10/2016, 6:56 PM – ‪+263 77 230 5960‬: I am trying to remember if the constitution specifically adress mineral rights I think not. As to whether the act is in line with the constitution in my view there is is nothing wrong with the wording so long as one is clear vesting in the office of the President
29/10/2016, 6:59 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Let’s be factual
29/10/2016, 7:02 PM – ‪+263 77 230 5960‬: Maybe you can assist me by pointing the Section related to mineral rights in the constitution
29/10/2016, 7:02 PM – Shingai Ndoro: The act is under review.
29/10/2016, 7:03 PM – Shingai Ndoro: I’m sending details in few minutes
29/10/2016, 7:04 PM – ‪+263 77 230 5960‬: Agreed and it needs reviewing
29/10/2016, 7:16 PM – Shingai Ndoro: Be ready with your data bundles.

I’m sending the constitution (2013), mines and minerals act (1961) and the 2015 amendment bill of the same act.
29/10/2016, 7:25 PM – Shingai Ndoro: I will allow people to download the three documents, fully read them and then we can have further discussions with specific references.
29/10/2016, 9:28 PM – Madyira:
29/10/2016, 10:11 PM – Tawanda Fosmm: Too many fallacies☝☝

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