Is Zimbabwe a Constitutional Democracy?

25/10/2016, 2:15 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: The challenge remains,,how do we foster this culture
25/10/2016, 2:16 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Where does it start and end,,what the yardstick to measure the success there of
25/10/2016, 3:55 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: we resist and reject unconstitutional things
25/10/2016, 3:56 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: decline in unconsttnal is one way to see impact of resistance and rejection of unconstnal things
25/10/2016, 5:39 AM – Shingai Ndoro: @17808381646 do you now know anything about Smoothnest?
25/10/2016, 6:02 AM – Dziva Mawere: Thanks. I am sure you will agree that constitutionalism is work in progress that needs our hands on the deck to best realize it.
25/10/2016, 6:21 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How does an ordinary civil servant decline directives from his superiors that impede on his constitutional rights when he not only needs his monthly salary but also fears victimization, we have to assert the how part from a grass roots level, how does the small man whose options are limited fight to promote constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 6:22 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Please view the video below of how prison officers vote in Zimbabwe against their will
25/10/2016, 6:22 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬:
25/10/2016, 6:31 AM – Dziva Mawere: FYI

[25/10, 05:24] Togara Mangenje: Morning,mukoma l have often debated with you on twitter as to how much truth there is to the allegations of vote rigging in Zimbabwe, so lam wondering have you seen the video footage of a secret camera placed in chikurubi prison during election time of how prison officers vote in Zimbabwe???? For fear of victimization ndatya kuiisa pagroup
[25/10, 06:00] mdmawere1: Morning
[25/10, 06:05] Togara Mangenje: Morning have you seen it and what is your assessment
[25/10, 06:12] mdmawere1: There can be no doubt the the playing field is not level. The more you are afraid the more the unjust outcomes will becomes inevitable and predictable.

What do you want to be remembered for? A voice that finds private spaces for best expression?

We have set up this group to use the facts of an inanimate entity like SMM to answer the question whether Mugabe is and has been fit to govern Zim or any country founded on constitutionalism
[25/10, 06:13] Togara Mangenje: Ok l hear you, will communicate via our platform
[25/10, 06:16] mdmawere1: Indeed. We need to learn about how best we can begin to reframe the future of our dreams and move away from the present whose character and personality represents the opposite
[25/10, 06:30] mdmawere1: Should we share the above thread just to encourage others to find their voices in public squares?
[25/10, 06:30] Togara Mangenje: I’m okay with that mukoma
[25/10, 06:30] mdmawere1: Great
25/10/2016, 8:20 AM – Doc 1873: Good morning and yes indeed our Constitution and any other need watchdogs to police and ensure spirit of Constitution is upheld. The gvt especially one like the Zim of each will not do that but will suppress it in every way possible.
25/10/2016, 8:22 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Who is the ZW’s equivalence of SA’s Public Protector in the new constitution?
25/10/2016, 8:26 AM – Dziva Mawere: We are still skirting around the pertinent questions that Gandanga raised that has informed subsequent questions on whether using the facts and experiences of SMM, a body corporate that can’t speak about bodily violence let alone corporate invasion similar to land invasion, one can conclusively say Mugabe is and has not been fit to govern.

We need to establish from end to end how the institution of government was abused and executive power invoked for what it was never intended for.
25/10/2016, 8:28 AM – Dziva Mawere: The public is naked and as we have seen in the SMM case even if the office had been established and resourced, it would not have any prospect to resist Executive tyranny.
25/10/2016, 8:30 AM – TinasheMpasiri: http://www.herald.co.zw/29-aspiring-judges-flunk-4-opt-out/
25/10/2016, 8:59 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Human Rights Commission
25/10/2016, 9:00 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Prosecutor General
25/10/2016, 9:02 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Human Rights Commission. We used to have Ombudsman , now replaced by HR commission in the new Constitution. Prosecutor general deals with prosecutions.
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – Shingai Ndoro: That’s not correct
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – Dziva Mawere: Institution building is one thing but protecting the constitution makes better sense
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Chect the Constitution of Zimbabwe. Prosecutor can never be ombudsman or public protector
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Dziva Mawere: Who protected SMM? Parliament or Judiciary.
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Shingai Ndoro: SA has its own separate Human Rights Commission.
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Dziva Mawere: It is still work in progress
25/10/2016, 9:07 AM – Doc 1873: I think we need the questions framed already by someone and then discussed because hoping that the whole group will drop in might be gambling with time. We need the lead in what will be spoken about as a program to ensure economy on time and direction. The executive can guide discussions and
25/10/2016, 9:07 AM – Doc 1873: The assemble can make suggestions of topics for further discussions and questions.
25/10/2016, 9:11 AM – Dziva Mawere: What is your take on the questions already asked by Gandanga and Wildfire?
25/10/2016, 9:13 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: SA s chapter 9 institutions are bit different from the Zim set up
25/10/2016, 9:14 AM – Dziva Mawere:
25/10/2016, 9:15 AM – Shingai Ndoro: The last question is redundant.

Zimbabwe is already a secular, constitutional and republican democracy.

We need to ask each HOW we can make it functional.
25/10/2016, 9:20 AM – Dziva Mawere: It may be on paper. But why do we need FOSMM if we can’t then use its facts to test whether promise anc reality are in sync.
25/10/2016, 9:21 AM – Dziva Mawere: We can only make something functional if we agree or negotiate consensus that it is broken and not working.
25/10/2016, 9:21 AM – Shingai Ndoro: It’s not a “may be.”

It is.

We the citizens should make it functional.
25/10/2016, 9:23 AM – Dziva Mawere: What if other voices say that in their experiences it ain’t broken and no need to assert functionality
25/10/2016, 9:26 AM – Adv T Mavula: *SUMMARY SYNOPSIS OF ISSUES/QTNS RAISED IN RELATION to Executive Orders* (opinion)

*#1*-After dismissal of the extradition of M.Mawere matter on 29 June 2004, the *Minister of Justice* declared Mawere a specified person in terms of the PCA.
*#2*- The Minister declared all companies under Mawere specified in terms of PCA n investigator appointed.
*#3*- On 3 September 2004 the Minister issued SI 187/2004 which was followed by a Recon Order on 6 September.
*#4*- The order was issued in terms of s4 Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures)(Recon of State-Indebted Insolvent Co) regulations (promulgated by the *President* on 3 September)
*#5*- In terms of the Recon order an administrator of the company was appointed.

*Issues arising*

*ad #1*
-The minister went on to specify Mawere when a competent court had ruled and dismissed on the extradition case which was prosecuted based on provisions of the PCA. The facts relied upon didn’t find substance leading to the acquittal yet the minister used the same facts to specify. In this instance he disregarded the finding of the courts which the GoZ had approached and sought extradition and prosecution of Mawere. The matter/facts would have been red judicata. The specification also violated the audi alter paterum rule which requires each party to be afforded equal opportunity to state their cases before a finding can be made in the interest of even handed justice and equity of arms.

The specification of the shareholder in his personal capacity didn’t resonate with the principal that a company is a legal person capable of being sued and sue in its name- the corporate veil was unduly pierced.

*ad #2 & #3*

In issuing the Recon Order the Minister acted as complainant, judge, jury and executioner. He had no judicial authority to make a finding and alter rights in the company by incapacitating its directors and appointing an administrator to run its affairs and control its transactions. This was a domain for the judiciary not executive discretion.

*ad #4*

The basis of the Recon regulations was the promulgation by the President via his Presidential Powers (Emergency Regulations), these defeat the tenants of the Rule of Law in that they defeat the duty of the legislature to make law. The effect of these powers is that they allow for smuggling in of new law unjustly or without the consultation afforded by the legislative law making process. Law should be certain and the Presidential Powers render the law unpredictable as at any time and at any instigation he may facilitate the fast track making of law.

*ad #5*

What is the extent which a minister can limit rights via an executive decree and issue a further order to empower a creature of statute to take over the vested rights of the company or its shareholders…
25/10/2016, 9:27 AM – Adv T Mavula: *SUMMARY SYNOPSIS OF ISSUES/QTNS RAISED IN RELATION to Executive Orders* (opinion)

*Extradition*
Following the granting of the Cession Order between SMM and Petter for payment of sums owed to Petter by SMM from SAS, the RBZ became interested and alleged violation of Exchange Control regulations. SMM executives were summoned by RBZ and ordered to rescind the Cession Agreement or face arrest. The agreement was construed as a ploy by Mawere to divert funds due to SMM and a charge in terms of CPE Act (Fraud & Externalisation) was made on 17 May 2004. An application for bringing Mawere to face the charges (immediate arrest and extradition) in Zim was made to the DPP SA. He was arrested on a warrant issued 24 May 04 by Pretoria Magistrate, given bail 27 May 04 and matter dismissed on 29 June 04.

*#1*-After dismissal of the extradition of M.Mawere matter on 29 June 2004, the *Minister of Justice* declared Mawere a specified person in terms of the PCA.
*#2*- The Minister declared all companies under Mawere specified in terms of PCA n investigator appointed.
*#3*- On 3 September 2004 the Minister issued SI 187/2004 which was followed by a Recon Order on 6 September.
*#4*- The order was issued in terms of s4 Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures)(Recon of State-Indebted Insolvent Co) regulations (promulgated by the *President* on 3 September)
*#5*- In terms of the Recon order an administrator of the company was appointed.

*Issues arising*

*per Extradition*

The court dismissed the charges and ruled that no crime had been committed taking cognisance of the Cession Order that had been granted earlier. Beyond this point and ruling there was no longer any basis for the Minister to specify or issue the Recon order as a court had found against the facts he sought to rely on .

*ad #1*
-The minister went on to specify Mawere when a competent court had ruled and dismissed on the extradition case which was prosecuted based on provisions of the PCA. The facts relied upon didn’t find substance leading to the acquittal yet the minister used the same facts to specify. In this instance he disregarded the finding of the courts which the GoZ had approached and sought extradition and prosecution of Mawere. The matter/facts would have been red judicata. The specification also violated the audi alter paterum rule which requires each party to be afforded equal opportunity to state their cases before a finding can be made in the interest of even handed justice and equity of arms.

The specification of the shareholder in his personal capacity didn’t resonate with the principal that a company is a legal person capable of being sued and sue in its name- the corporate veil was unduly pierced.

*ad #2 & #3*

In issuing the Recon Order the Minister acted as complainant, judge, jury and executioner. He had no judicial authority to make a finding and alter rights in the company by incapacitating its directors and appointing an administrator to run its affairs and control its transactions. This was a domain for the judiciary not executive discretion.

*ad #4*

The basis of the Recon regulations was the promulgation by the President via his Presidential Powers (Emergency Regulations), these defeat the tenants of the Rule of Law in that they defeat the duty of the legislature to make law. The effect of these powers is that they allow for smuggling in of new law unjustly or without the consultation afforded by the legislative law making process. Law should be certain and the Presidential Powers render the law unpredictable as at any time and at any instigation he may facilitate the fast track making of law.

*ad #5*

What is the extent which a minister can limit rights via an executive decree and issue a further order to empower a creature of statute to take over the vested rights of the company or its shareholders…

This is not exhaustive as a host of Constitutional rights and technicalities arise form these findings
25/10/2016, 9:27 AM – Adv T Mavula: Apologies . attend to the second post
25/10/2016, 9:29 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Functionality and enforcement is something contestable in the public square and the constitutional court adjudicates.
25/10/2016, 9:31 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Talk of functionality whe HE publicly threatens judges
25/10/2016, 9:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: That is a different question but how do we contextualise the issues so that we don’t depart from the great methodical learning experience. There are already questions in the public square. Is it not more efficient to dispose of prior questions and then proceed to deal with the many important questions about functionality and enforcement using a concrete case study as a reference point?
25/10/2016, 9:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: No one doubts this?
25/10/2016, 9:40 AM – Dziva Mawere: In the papers regarding extradition were any allegations made as at 22 May 2004 that SMM was state indebted?
25/10/2016, 11:00 AM – Dziva Mawere: Please tune in on www.the1873fm.com for a conversation on the challenges of building constitutional democracies in post colonial Africa.

Zimbabwe is +36 yrs old and the uphill journey of building a diverse, just, and inclusive post-colonial dispensation is not an illusion.

A group Friends of Zimbabwe is seized with the question of building a shared understanding of what constitutionalism is and what it is not.

It uses the facts and experiences of SMM to resolve some of the key and fundamental issues of nation-state building.

What can we learn about the link between the respect of the rule of law and prosperity?

Please add your voice your voice to the conversations of our time and generation.

Tune in at 11am today.
25/10/2016, 11:02 AM – Wildfire 1873: Please tune in on www.the1873fm.com for a conversation on the challenges of building constitutional democracies in post colonial Africa.

Zimbabwe is +36 yrs old and the uphill journey of building a diverse, just, and inclusive post-colonial dispensation is not an illusion.

A group Friends of Zimbabwe is seized with the question of building a shared understanding of what constitutionalism is and what it is not.

It uses the facts and experiences of SMM to resolve some of the key and fundamental issues of nation-state building.

What can we learn about the link between the respect of the rule of law and prosperity?

Please add your voice your voice to the conversations of our time and generation.

Tune in at 11am today.
25/10/2016, 11:13 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Would we accept a white person for President?
25/10/2016, 11:13 AM – TinasheMpasiri: He is a human being right?
25/10/2016, 11:14 AM – Dziva Mawere: Is there any word in the constitution that speaks to whites as a category with superior or inferior rights?
25/10/2016, 11:15 AM – Doc 1873: I think I did respond to those questions already and someone added property rights even
25/10/2016, 11:22 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: I am sorry but is this a serious question?
25/10/2016, 11:23 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Question is more…are we ready for change?
25/10/2016, 11:23 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Should one start re-evaluating the company that one keeps?
25/10/2016, 11:24 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Well, our flag has a black line right?
25/10/2016, 11:26 AM – Dziva Mawere: Can we at the very least live up to the FOSMM promise by refusing2be diverted from the agenda that seeks to advance scholarship based on real challenges
25/10/2016, 11:26 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What is going on right now?
25/10/2016, 11:27 AM – Dziva Mawere: I am not sure where the destination is meant to be?
25/10/2016, 11:28 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What is all this about white people as president and superior intellect and flags?
25/10/2016, 11:30 AM – Dziva Mawere: We can’t seek a higher moral ground when we excel at the opposite
25/10/2016, 11:30 AM – ‪+27 81 258 1632‬ left
25/10/2016, 11:31 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What are you on about? Why is this even a question?
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – Shingai Ndoro: We have time to talk racism 101?

Nxaaaa
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – Dziva Mawere: I am in agreement with you
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: How sensitive this issue is, is as serious as how inclusive and sensitive the so called constitution drafters need to be
25/10/2016, 11:33 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: There is nothing sensitive about this issue, it’s a silly issue. Of course a white person can be president! Hello
25/10/2016, 11:33 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We tend to shy away from the obvious issues that our constitution alienates other people from active participation from national issues and governance and makes it impossible to advance their interests because 36 years ago…they were led by Smith
25/10/2016, 11:34 AM – Dziva Mawere: I think we can create another group to address this important question
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 👍🏾Point taken. That was my point exactly
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: The constitution does not stop any Zimbabwean from being President as long as they are 40 years old. And no, “they” were not led by Smith, WE WERE ALL led by Smith
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: 👋🏾👋🏾
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – Shingai Ndoro: 👌🏿
25/10/2016, 11:36 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Sorry.. wasnt there
25/10/2016, 11:37 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Then you can’t be president for another 4 years. Sorry
25/10/2016, 11:37 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Uri right because we dont want to personalise these serious issues, plus you know what, we need proper space as Zimbabweans to discuss the finer issues of democracy, but the primary issue is to remove the stumbling block, Zanu Pf, we cant talk about property rights when Zanu is entreched, lets deal with primary issues first i.e how best to remove the beast called Zanu pf then we can discuss the rest.
25/10/2016, 11:38 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 😀😀Even more. But is Zimbabwe ready for a White president to lead the NTA
25/10/2016, 11:38 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Somebody sent me that one
25/10/2016, 11:39 AM – Dziva Mawere: Is that the question for this forum?
25/10/2016, 11:41 AM – Munya 1873: This chat has been very eye opening I strongly agree that because of lack of knowledge people perish . The things we were made to believe and I now know through this group it’s amazing .
25/10/2016, 11:41 AM – Dziva Mawere: Should we keep on going back and forth or forwards
25/10/2016, 11:42 AM – Munya 1873: Forward and forward
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: With all due respect MM, Zimbabweans know what is wrong with our country. It’s as simple and straightforward. ..ZANUPF. There won’t be change until its gone…I speak under correction. And if thisis not worth attention, then I have no idea what is. I will recoil into my hole and fold my arms and 😷
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – Dziva Mawere: @27795175356 can we move forward and leave it to aspiring whites to seek mandates from relevant actors
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – ‪+263 73 378 2490‬: Race, color or skin type are not an issue as long as one can is eligible and accepted as a candidate and gets the required votes as per our constitution….the FOSMM issue is beyond skin type , black, blue, white it can happen
25/10/2016, 11:44 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Racism, ethnicity and sexism is fodder for the simpletons!
25/10/2016, 11:44 AM – Dziva Mawere: Let us focus on facts so that those who wish to determine the suitability of incumbents and their potential successors may subject them to objective tests including attitude to constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 11:45 AM – Primose 1873: True
25/10/2016, 11:45 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: And you think the current government is full of them, simpletons????
25/10/2016, 11:46 AM – Dziva Mawere: Fortunately our heritage with institutions is not rich and we may be the first or second generation to use them as a way of life
25/10/2016, 11:46 AM – Dziva Mawere: The actors in government reflects all of us. It is microcosm of what we are and the depth we can sink in.
25/10/2016, 11:49 AM – ‪+263 73 378 2490‬: 👍🏾
25/10/2016, 11:49 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Yes they do but not by our own design, ministers are not voted into ministries they are appointed, which is why we have ministers who brag in public that they only went to xul up to grade three yet they are ministers, we have ministers who brag in public gatherings that they smoke marijuana and it’s good for them, this is because the criteria for appointment has nothing to do with ability but rather war records
25/10/2016, 11:50 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I know we discussing constitutionalism but with the current government that paper is exactly what it is just a paper
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Riddle me this one : Lots of intelligent people in Zimbabwe. ..but no true and genuine leaders?
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – Dziva Mawere: You may be shocked that the power to appoint flows directly from an ancestor. We are the ancestors of governmental power. We own the government yet temporary actors play football on our inability to organise
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾
25/10/2016, 11:52 AM – Shingai Ndoro: I have come across intensely educated idiots!
25/10/2016, 11:52 AM – Dziva Mawere: A genius has one vote and an idiot as also one vote. There in lies the challenge that framers of qualified franchise sought to give life to.
25/10/2016, 11:53 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Like zvogbo said problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them, somebody has been a minister since 1980, to him heading a ministry has nothing to do with service delivery but rather it’s a right he earned by participating in ours war of liberation
25/10/2016, 11:53 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Zvobgo wasn’t the originator of that!
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Kkkkkkki l can’t disagree comrade, l only heard from him
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I know.
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Don’t make a claim without verification.

When you heard it from him, he ddnt claim to be the originator.
25/10/2016, 11:55 AM – Dziva Mawere: Indeed
25/10/2016, 11:56 AM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: The principal objectives of the Trust are:-

7.1) To advocate and promote culture and practise that respects the rule of law, people and their property, and unwavering implementation of the national constitution.

7.2) To enrich and enlighten its members with knowledge about the often forgotten African corporate citizens and their actors in bridging the gaps of poverty and inequality.

7.3) To create, initiate and provide a platform for discussing cooperate heritage issues, sharing ideas, insights, experience, problems as well as solutions.

7.4) To seek to influence government proposals and existing legislation by utilising the expertise of our members.

7.5) To assist the membership in their intellectual and conceptual development and in playing their parts as active and vigilant citizens.

7.6) To receive and accepts gifts and bequests of money and other assets donated to the trust for the purpose of financing its activities.

7.7) To provide a Pan African network of peer co-ordinators for fellowship and institutional building.

7.8) To interact with other organisations and individual to accomplish these ends.

7.9) To build strong national network of actors who share a common belief that Africa can lift itself up when the role of state and non-state actors is properly balanced and located.

7.10) To identify and share good practise and to promote values of the organisation.

7.11) To do all things as are incidental or conducive to the foregoing objectives.
25/10/2016, 11:56 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I don’t see how this is a major issue, seems like you are polarizing the argument
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah neh…even if Zvobgo ddint say that…wht the hell are we doing negotiating a settlement with a recycled material thatbhas been to ashes and back?
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: This group would have been functional in a functioning democracy like SA. Our major problem now is we have a vampire that is sucking blood, before we sit down to discuss anything else we must remove the vampire from society. SMM complains of property rights because of this vampire, police do not do their work properly because of this vampire, security agents do not know their role because of this vampire, people are dying of treatable diseases because of this vampire, we are diasporians because of this vampire, You talk of property rights some of us do not have property because of this vampire, I feel safe in Joburg than in Harare because of this vampire, Zimdef money is gone because of this vampire. The house is on fire, lets put out the fire first. Lets direct all these energy and intelligence on how to stop the vampire from sucking further blood then we can discuss other issues.
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – Munya 1873: True and genuine leaders are there and plenty !!!! They are overshadowed by the plenty that are on the other side
25/10/2016, 11:58 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I have been trying to say this. I couldn’t have put it in a better way!
25/10/2016, 11:58 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Really. . Name them
25/10/2016, 11:59 AM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Least we 4get Gen Josh was a geuine leader.bt he got cornered.
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let us leave the question for another day for the correct people
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Zvogbo was a genuine leader.
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: Can we focus on the subject of the day.
25/10/2016, 12:01 PM – Dziva Mawere: Leaders are the prerogative of the people the constitution and laws clothe power with
25/10/2016, 12:03 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I will forever salute Joshua Nkomo…a leader knows when he to throw in the towel.. for the sake of his people. HAS ANYONE IMAGINED WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO THE NDEBELE HAD NKOMO NOT SETTLED FOR NUTS🙊🙊🙊🙊
25/10/2016, 12:03 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah…he made Mugabe!!!!!
25/10/2016, 12:04 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: We let jm dwn.it ws never supposed to b a qtn of him n the ndebele vs mugabe
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We had our Gabriel…who would have cared!
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: It virtually impossible to critic the Zim situation and comedy with ideas to move foward as a nation without pointing fingers at zanu pf

Asking what Zimbabwe would do after getting rid of zanu is like asking what the world would do after it got rid of Hiv/Aids, the question is not relevant at the moment, it should be an after thought, because the primary concern is clear
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let him RIP. This platform allows the living to stake their claim on facts.
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: A village boy, Nkomo morphed into one of Africa’s best sons. Not as charming or glamorous as Mandela but he was very special all on his own!
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: *come up not comedy
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+263 71 803 0691‬: Zimbabwe is short of leaders who think and act highmindedly and has got the majority of its citizens seeing good governance as nothing beyond bread and butter issues.
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬:
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I tried to be funny ysday when I posted a clip from Forbidden Kingdom about Two tigers on one mountain and was admonished. That was my point
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Pandora kune chinhu chinonzi priority, what do we do first
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: #Remove the cancer and breath…only then can we be able to assess and evaluate our situation
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: The house is on fire and you are talking about good leaders.
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: we hv leaders bt who cn stand against d barel of a gun unless he also b armed n shielded?
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Quench the fire first or you burn inside
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – Dziva Mawere: 👍👍👍This is proving impossible on this platform. No wonder why one little guy has had 36 years of fun at Statehouse
25/10/2016, 12:10 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Mandela is nowhere near Nkomo friend…Mandela is artificial. ..a product of White South Africans when they realised change was inevitable. So please dont ever compare my leader with Mandela. He was a good person and progressive and he saw the bigger picture…but Nkomo had to wear a dress to run away from Robert. How is that 😡😡😡
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – Dziva Mawere: Nkomo died a VP in Mugabe’s crew. He ran his race and we can’t change the facts of history.
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+263 73 374 9474‬: Missed the topic of today
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Take note we got CIOs in our midst
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: We need a transition in which economic decisions are made using business ethics and not along political lines but zanu pf won’t allow it, they want to have control of everything and anything for the sake of just being in control, they aren’t empathetic, in fact in Zimbabwe today there is some form of apartheid, we have a superior class, your kasukuweres, Obert mpofus etc, so the way l see it the first and only move is to remove zanu pf
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: You’re entitled to your own opinion but not facts.
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Didn’t you just say you are under 36 years old? Can you honestly make these comparisons? And to what aim? How is this even relevant to anything. Robin Williams wore a dress as Mrs Doubtfire, is he perhaps better than Mandela?
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: MM your class is very loud today😁
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Mabox i cnt seperate economics n politics
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: Who do u propose to lead that transition?
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Mr Mawere i saw you on Channel 405 i was happy that you were on the panel lists. However i was very shocked and dissapointed with some of your views, Mugabe is not a little men. If he was little you would not be crying about your SMM that you lost, like it or not he has made himself a demigod because of people like you naan Zvobgo ivavo who delayed in confronting him muchidya naye muchifara, pamakatorerwa zvinhu hanzi mavara azara ivhu. Dont lie to people Mugabe is not a simple man you are lying.
25/10/2016, 12:14 PM – Dziva Mawere: Before we talk about transition, has it occurred to you that real lessons about good statecraft and governance are easily lost to endless opinions about a person rather than a system
25/10/2016, 12:14 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Why not the Chinese do it, they don’t like America but it’s still their biggest debtor
25/10/2016, 12:15 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How do you change the system if the head of the system prefers it the way it is, l say in such a case remove the head
25/10/2016, 12:15 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Lol…yes I am😁. Are u seriously saying I am not supposed to know these things? I have been fortunate to be exposed to most cultures, races and tribes…speak 7 languages including #foullanguage🙂
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Pandora you are agreeing the solution is to remove Zanu pf first then you can do what you are suggesting.
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: So yes. ..I know how a black Zimbabwean and a white Zimbabwean vs a South African vs a Btitish think
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Does anyone like America?
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – Dziva Mawere: Indeed let us set up a forum to talk about Mugabe’s shortcomings and see whether his absence will deliver a better promise than constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Yes
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We cant talk about our constitution with Mugabe at the helm.
25/10/2016, 12:18 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Not Mugabe the Zanu Pf system must be removed mr Mawere
25/10/2016, 12:18 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅✅✅,that would be idealistic
25/10/2016, 12:19 PM – Dziva Mawere: Mugabe is not the constitution
25/10/2016, 12:19 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: So…when is Zimbabwe uniting against evil
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: He doesn’t have respect for it. He runs a house of thugs and thieves MM
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Ideally he is civil servant but as things stand he is a demi God, zanu made him into one
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 73 374 9474‬: As long a politics remains a career we won’t go anywhere. That’s the mistake we made in 1980. (We now have professional MPs, ministers etc). As long as that mentality remains we are stuck!
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Mugabe is the Supreme Leader he does not care about the constitution and so are his Ministers and government.
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅
25/10/2016, 12:21 PM – Munya 1873: 👏🏿👏🏿
25/10/2016, 12:21 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I want a white Person to lead the NTA
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: @263772573823 it’s now mvengemvenge here a hotchpotch of political ideas
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: It took a few hours to arrest Evan mawarire over unconfirmed allegations that he had stolen a police button stick, yet it’s been weeks the anti corruption commission has declared it has evidence Jonathan moyo abused public funds yet he is walking Scott free
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – Dziva Mawere: Because we don’t care as shown here about understanding what constitutionalism is all about.
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Class is loud today
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – Dziva Mawere: In what capacity do you make this wish?
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 1. Constitutional right
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are confirming the opposite of constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Mr Mawere with your clout, intelligence and abilities you should be helping Zimbabweans how to to remove Zanu pf . Encouraging youth to vote so as to change things kwete these SMM please we neef your voice.
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Kkkkkkki this also wrong it shouldn’t be about color, it should be about merit
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 2. I don’t trust a Gandanga
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: Then let the call be made to a platform that needs it.
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – ‪+263 71 803 0691‬: Is that MM’s duty or everyone’s including you?
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – Dziva Mawere: That is why we are trying to use real and hard facts to show that under Mugabe the promise of independence was betrayed by real conduct
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 3. We can erase the myth of racism just like that!
25/10/2016, 12:26 PM – Dziva Mawere: We set up a group to coalesce views around facts and what do we surrender to?
25/10/2016, 12:26 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: Why white if I may ask
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I think what he meant is mm being a public figure, his voice might be a little louder than ours however it doesn’t alleviate any of us from responsibility
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are encouraging a fruitless enterprise with no destination
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: People are angry and emotional that’s all. Apologies
25/10/2016, 12:28 PM – Dziva Mawere: We need a voice that speaks to shared values rather than expecting me to be another Mugabe with a sharp tongue when none is required to inspire hope.
25/10/2016, 12:28 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are not people but an individual. Let us not behave as animals.
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Really now…plz dont burden this man…he has suffered the wrath of Robert. We can’t do this to him. We …the born free generation my vote ZanuPf out of power
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Mutumwa we nid yo as an influential leader
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How do you tell your little son or daughter every morning to work hard in school because it pays off when you have three degrees but you are selling harurwa and masawu to make a living

Nxa zanu pf has stolen more than our constitutional rights, it has destroyed our hopes and dreams
25/10/2016, 12:30 PM – Munya 1873: It’s not who votes that matters it’s who counts the votes who matters in Zim .
25/10/2016, 12:31 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: MM would you be President?
25/10/2016, 12:31 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah neh😏…almost forgot
25/10/2016, 12:32 PM – Dziva Mawere: I have facts that can be shared so that the opposition is not reduced to making slogans.
25/10/2016, 12:33 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We don’t want an oppositin. We need a united front to remove ZanuPf
25/10/2016, 12:34 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: If u the champion of that…u got my vote
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – Dziva Mawere: That is a wrong question. We need to appreciate that prescripts of the constitution in terms of Presidential Powers and not get a successor who is like Mugabe and pisses on all the people with impunity.
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – Morelife: Then if you remove ZANU PF how will it help Zimbabwe and yourself
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Priority is removin zanu pf then …..we wl deal with the aftermath wn we gt there
25/10/2016, 12:36 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Fresh start, how is keeping zanu pf helping the masses???
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Wel said Pandora.
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – Morelife: Dont you think its a dangerous dream that will bring our country to Libya way
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – Wildfire 1873: https://soundcloud.com/the-1873-network-962541670/interrogating-the-executive-order-3
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – Dziva Mawere: You got valid observations and we need to raise awareness of the true intended role of a constitutional President. An imperial head of state is not provided for in the constitution. How do we educate even Mugabe and his Justice cluster that when the facts of SMM are examined, Mugabe should not be near any government office.
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: No libya.hw is keeping zanu helpim anyone?
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: You like corruption, thieving, unemployment, bond notes, poor education system, underpaid civil service, drought year every year because of poor farming practices,

Saka chakanakira zanu chii nhai???
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – Dziva Mawere: We can only unite on values based on shared facts. Which option you seem determined not to realise
25/10/2016, 12:39 PM – Dziva Mawere: I don’t deserve your vote but your patience to allow facts to take us somewhere
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – Dziva Mawere: There are failed careers that started in 1980 wanting to remove ZANU-PF without realising that it is just a construct and the real action takes place in the name of government where the resources of the people are privatised. There is no word in the constitution that talks of ZANU-PF being entitled to limit your rights and freedom. Let us refuse to chase shadows.
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – Shingai Ndoro: It’s now time wasting and energy sapping. Debilitating!
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Lybia did not remove Gaddafi…America did…and Zim is worse than Lybia right now
25/10/2016, 12:44 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: Very true
25/10/2016, 12:45 PM – ‪+27 78 948 9362‬: Am following
25/10/2016, 12:48 PM – Dziva Mawere: And exhausting
25/10/2016, 12:49 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: I do agree with some arguments here and there is a lot we can learn considering our zim experience on property rights, freedom of expression n all. The question is, have we really leant anything yet n how has that influenced our decisions? Forums like these are good but without action plan it remains academic without any tangible result. If we really love our country we should go beyond an awareness of our problems but solution to our problems n get boots down in reviving the dead.
25/10/2016, 12:53 PM – Morelife: Very true because we will remove a system and replace it with rhe system in a different name. Rather lets research on how did we build the so called demigods then come up with solutions on destroying it and come up with a fool proof system for the good of our kids and their kids
25/10/2016, 12:55 PM – Morelife: What proof do we have that if we rwmove ZANU PF we wont replace it with a zanu pf in another name
25/10/2016, 12:55 PM – Dziva Mawere: But I am sure you will agree that we need a glue to bind us. We need to consolidate our views based on facts. Allow facts to give motion
25/10/2016, 12:57 PM – Dziva Mawere: ZANU-PF is a club of members whose activities without its actors being in government will be inconsequential yet we who believe in constitutionalism allows a non issue to dominate conversations. We need to make government actors accountable for their role in government and not a party of members.
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – Adv T Mavula: Following the discussions going on in the forum I am tempted to say we are losing the objectives gradually. Everyone has an opinion as to what is Zimbabwe’s problem some similar and some diverse. We all know the causes of Zimbabwean problems imagined and real…

How government is supposed to change and who should come in to lead we can debate forever.

Now understand this bit if you will…the focus of FOSMM is to strengthen the institutions whether under Mugabe or after….whether its possible now or not is another matter but our thrust and indeed the aim of this platform is to pursue that trajectory. How and who or when gvt has to change to who is not a core issue of this discourse .

Systems and individuals change but institutions remain and they have to be strengthened to safeguard against the current quagmire.

Our approach is simple…we have taken the SMM case study to make references and take lessons in the attempt to discuss and build stronger institutions.

I implore us all to stand guided accordingly lest we turn this platform into something and duplicates every other platform we are on. We come with different issues we want to share but they may not be necessarily appropriate here. The agenda is already set in the objectives and anything outside that isn’t democracy but a blatant disregard of what FOSMM stands for.

Good Day

Adv T Mavula
(Chair FOSMM)
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: Agreed, hope we will find one another and focus on those things that will help us create a system we want n a better Zimbabwe for all
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – Shingai Ndoro: I have issued the same caution since yesterday.
25/10/2016, 1:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: When we are disciplined and focused, no human giant will stand against facts
25/10/2016, 1:04 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Point taken👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽
25/10/2016, 1:05 PM – Adv T Mavula: If you are new and need clarity on the journey that you have joined feel free to engage with myself or any older member so we can move on e same plane and understanding or visit us at www.fosmm.org or follow on twitter @FriendsOfSMM
25/10/2016, 1:05 PM – ‪+263 77 248 6483‬: Zvobgo!!! This is the guy who crafted the executive president which turned Mugabe into a demi devil…he thoughtbhe will replace Mugabe..
25/10/2016, 1:06 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I hope you been listening to the chairman.
25/10/2016, 1:06 PM – Adv T Mavula: Or like our Facebook page Friends of Shabanie Mashaba Mines Holdings Pvt Ltd
25/10/2016, 1:09 PM – Raphael 1873: Good Afternoon Comrades, My name is Raphael Moyo, a Friend oF SMM and a person who is working on our website called www.fosmm.org. Please go to the website browse through, register and advise how best we can build our platform to invest through sharing of experiences on issues related to the role that the state and non-state actors including firms, institutions and their actors can play in delivering the promise of inclusive, caring, prosperous, sustainable and progressive human societies.
25/10/2016, 1:12 PM – Raphael 1873: As Adv Thuto has already said above, we have a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Friends-of-SMM-Holdings-Pvt-Ltd-747832045358920/ and our twitter page: https://twitter.com/FriendsofSMM. Please Like those pages and share.
25/10/2016, 1:13 PM – Dziva Mawere: @raphael have you posted the extradition papers and the affidavits of February 2004 on the FOSMM website to use as reference. Also include the documents prepared for Justice Kriegler
25/10/2016, 1:18 PM – Adv T Mavula: *IMPORTANT NOTICE*

Be hereby advised that the FOSMM Executive has decided to approach the courts and prosecute legal legal action in the name of FOSMM flowing from the discussions that have been happening on this and other related platforms since inception. There has been input and debate via the Radio 1873FM that has also motivated this move. The form and substance of the proceedings will be discussed and shared in due course.

Be sure to participate in this discussion starring at 14:00hr this afternoon by tuning in to www.the1873fm.com

Let your voice be heard!

Chair (FOSMM)
25/10/2016, 1:19 PM – Dziva Mawere: 👋🏾👋🏾👋🏾👋🏾
25/10/2016, 1:23 PM – Norman FOSMM: 71 Property rights
(1) In this section—
“pension benefit” means a pension, annuity, gratuity or similar allowance which is payable—
(a) to any person from the Consolidated Revenue Fund;
(b) in respect of a person’s service with an employer;
(c) in respect of a person’s ill-health or injury; or
(d) in respect of a person’s retirement through age or ill-health or any other reason;
and includes a commutation of such a pension, annuity, gratuity or allowance and a refund of contributions
paid towards such a pension, annuity, gratuity or allowance;
“property” means property of any description and any right or interest in property.
(2) Subject to section 72, every person has the right, in any part of Zimbabwe, to acquire, hold, occupy, use,
transfer, hypothecate, lease or dispose of all forms of property, either individually or in association with others.
(3) Subject to this section and to section 72, no person may be compulsorily deprived of their property except
where the following conditions are satisfied—
(a) the deprivation is in terms of a law of general application;
(b) the deprivation is necessary for any of the following reasons—
(i) in the interests of defence, public safety, public order, public morality, public health or town
and country planning; or
(ii) in order to develop or use that or any other property for a purpose beneficial to the community;
(c) the law requires the acquiring authority—
(i) to give reasonable notice of the intention to acquire the property to everyone whose interest or
right in the property would be affected by the acquisition;
(ii) to pay fair and adequate compensation for the acquisition before acquiring the property or
within a reasonable time after the acquisition; and
(iii) if the acquisition is contested, to apply to a competent court before acquiring the property,
or not later than thirty days after the acquisition, for an order confirming the acquisition;
(d) the law entitles any person whose property has been acquired to apply to a competent court for the
prompt return of the property if the court does not confirm the acquisition; and
(e) the law entitles any claimant for compensation to apply to a competent court for the determination
of— (i) the existence, nature and value of their interest in the property concerned;
(ii) the legality of the deprivation; and
(iii) the amount of compensation to which they are entitled;
and to apply to the court for an order directing the prompt payment of any compensation.
(4) Where a person has a vested or contingent right to the payment of a pension benefit, a law which provides
for the extinction or diminution of that right is regarded, for the purposes of subsection (3), as a law providing for
the compulsory acquisition of property.
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: Good start
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: How do we frame the questions?
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Norman FOSMM: 12 Forfeiture or vesting in State of rights held by culpable persons
(1) The administrator shall cancel or nullify any share, right or interest in or claim upon a company under reconstruction purportedly held by a culpable person which was obtained by or resulted from any fraud committed by the culpable person.
(2) Any share, right or interest in or claim upon a company under reconstruction held by a culpable person that is not a share, right or interest in or claim upon the company referred to in subsection (1) and which properly vests in a culpable person shall, with effect from the date he or she becomes a culpable person in terms of section 9(8), vest in the State, which, in consideration therefor, shall apply the same by way of set-off towards discharging the culpable person’s liability for any or all of the debts and liabilities of the company.
(3) The administrator may, in accordance with a scheme of reconstruction—
(a) consolidate or redivide any shares referred to in subsection (2) into any number of shares of any denomination equivalent to the true or fair value of the shares previously held by the culpable person;
(b) convert any right, interest or claim referred to in subsection (2) into shares equal in value to the true or fair value of the right, claim or interest previously held by the culpable person;
and the shares resulting from the exercise of the administrator’s powers under paragraph (a) or (b) shall be issued to the State.
25/10/2016, 1:25 PM – Norman FOSMM: peruse section 71 of the constitution and cmpare it with section 12 of the RECON ACT
25/10/2016, 1:27 PM – Norman FOSMM: @MDM….What is it that that was robbed from you under the auspices of the RECON ACT….
25/10/2016, 1:32 PM – Dziva Mawere: Should it be about me or the principles of constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 1:40 PM – Norman FOSMM: wanted to open minds…..using the practical situation of SMM
25/10/2016, 1:41 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let us start with the proper role of public office bearers in a constitutional democratic order.
25/10/2016, 1:49 PM – Norman FOSMM: 86 Limitation of rights and freedoms
(1) The fundamental rights and freedoms set out in this Chapter must be exercised reasonably and with due regard
for the rights and freedoms of other persons.
(2) The fundamental rights and freedoms set out in this Chapter may be limited only in terms of a law of general
application and to the extent that the limitation is fair, reasonable, necessary and justifiable in a democratic
society based on openness, justice, human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all
relevant factors, including—
(a) the nature of the right or freedom concerned;
(b) the purpose of the limitation, in particular whether it is necessary in the interests of defence, public
safety, public order, public morality, public health, regional or town planning or the general
public interest;
(c) the nature and extent of the limitation;
(d) the need to ensure that the enjoyment of rights and freedoms by any person does not prejudice the rights
and freedoms of others;
(e) the relationship between the limitation and its purpose, in particular whether it imposes greater restrictions
on the right or freedom concerned than are necessary to achieve its purpose; and
(f) whether there are any less restrictive means of achieving the purpose of the limitation.
25/10/2016, 1:49 PM – Raphael 1873: Extraditions papers can be found on: http://fosmm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/EXTRADITION-PAPERS.pdf
25/10/2016, 1:53 PM – Norman FOSMM: CONSTITUTIONALISM_…..the first question that arises is whether or not the limitation contained within the RECON ACT remains constitutional or falls within the limit provided for in terms of s86 of the constitutional?
25/10/2016, 2:15 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: The challenge remains,,how do we foster this culture
25/10/2016, 2:16 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Where does it start and end,,what the yardstick to measure the success there of
25/10/2016, 3:55 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: we resist and reject unconstitutional things
25/10/2016, 3:56 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: decline in unconsttnal is one way to see impact of resistance and rejection of unconstnal things
25/10/2016, 5:39 AM – Shingai Ndoro: @17808381646 do you now know anything about Smoothnest?
25/10/2016, 6:02 AM – Dziva Mawere: Thanks. I am sure you will agree that constitutionalism is work in progress that needs our hands on the deck to best realize it.
25/10/2016, 6:21 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How does an ordinary civil servant decline directives from his superiors that impede on his constitutional rights when he not only needs his monthly salary but also fears victimization, we have to assert the how part from a grass roots level, how does the small man whose options are limited fight to promote constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 6:22 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Please view the video below of how prison officers vote in Zimbabwe against their will
25/10/2016, 6:22 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬:
25/10/2016, 6:31 AM – Dziva Mawere: FYI

[25/10, 05:24] Togara Mangenje: Morning,mukoma l have often debated with you on twitter as to how much truth there is to the allegations of vote rigging in Zimbabwe, so lam wondering have you seen the video footage of a secret camera placed in chikurubi prison during election time of how prison officers vote in Zimbabwe???? For fear of victimization ndatya kuiisa pagroup
[25/10, 06:00] mdmawere1: Morning
[25/10, 06:05] Togara Mangenje: Morning have you seen it and what is your assessment
[25/10, 06:12] mdmawere1: There can be no doubt the the playing field is not level. The more you are afraid the more the unjust outcomes will becomes inevitable and predictable.

What do you want to be remembered for? A voice that finds private spaces for best expression?

We have set up this group to use the facts of an inanimate entity like SMM to answer the question whether Mugabe is and has been fit to govern Zim or any country founded on constitutionalism
[25/10, 06:13] Togara Mangenje: Ok l hear you, will communicate via our platform
[25/10, 06:16] mdmawere1: Indeed. We need to learn about how best we can begin to reframe the future of our dreams and move away from the present whose character and personality represents the opposite
[25/10, 06:30] mdmawere1: Should we share the above thread just to encourage others to find their voices in public squares?
[25/10, 06:30] Togara Mangenje: I’m okay with that mukoma
[25/10, 06:30] mdmawere1: Great
25/10/2016, 8:20 AM – Doc 1873: Good morning and yes indeed our Constitution and any other need watchdogs to police and ensure spirit of Constitution is upheld. The gvt especially one like the Zim of each will not do that but will suppress it in every way possible.
25/10/2016, 8:22 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Who is the ZW’s equivalence of SA’s Public Protector in the new constitution?
25/10/2016, 8:26 AM – Dziva Mawere: We are still skirting around the pertinent questions that Gandanga raised that has informed subsequent questions on whether using the facts and experiences of SMM, a body corporate that can’t speak about bodily violence let alone corporate invasion similar to land invasion, one can conclusively say Mugabe is and has not been fit to govern.

We need to establish from end to end how the institution of government was abused and executive power invoked for what it was never intended for.
25/10/2016, 8:28 AM – Dziva Mawere: The public is naked and as we have seen in the SMM case even if the office had been established and resourced, it would not have any prospect to resist Executive tyranny.
25/10/2016, 8:30 AM – TinasheMpasiri: http://www.herald.co.zw/29-aspiring-judges-flunk-4-opt-out/
25/10/2016, 8:59 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Human Rights Commission
25/10/2016, 9:00 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Prosecutor General
25/10/2016, 9:02 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Human Rights Commission. We used to have Ombudsman , now replaced by HR commission in the new Constitution. Prosecutor general deals with prosecutions.
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – Shingai Ndoro: That’s not correct
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – Dziva Mawere: Institution building is one thing but protecting the constitution makes better sense
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Chect the Constitution of Zimbabwe. Prosecutor can never be ombudsman or public protector
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Dziva Mawere: Who protected SMM? Parliament or Judiciary.
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Shingai Ndoro: SA has its own separate Human Rights Commission.
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Dziva Mawere: It is still work in progress
25/10/2016, 9:07 AM – Doc 1873: I think we need the questions framed already by someone and then discussed because hoping that the whole group will drop in might be gambling with time. We need the lead in what will be spoken about as a program to ensure economy on time and direction. The executive can guide discussions and
25/10/2016, 9:07 AM – Doc 1873: The assemble can make suggestions of topics for further discussions and questions.
25/10/2016, 9:11 AM – Dziva Mawere: What is your take on the questions already asked by Gandanga and Wildfire?
25/10/2016, 9:13 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: SA s chapter 9 institutions are bit different from the Zim set up
25/10/2016, 9:14 AM – Dziva Mawere:
25/10/2016, 9:15 AM – Shingai Ndoro: The last question is redundant.

Zimbabwe is already a secular, constitutional and republican democracy.

We need to ask each HOW we can make it functional.
25/10/2016, 9:20 AM – Dziva Mawere: It may be on paper. But why do we need FOSMM if we can’t then use its facts to test whether promise anc reality are in sync.
25/10/2016, 9:21 AM – Dziva Mawere: We can only make something functional if we agree or negotiate consensus that it is broken and not working.
25/10/2016, 9:21 AM – Shingai Ndoro: It’s not a “may be.”

It is.

We the citizens should make it functional.
25/10/2016, 9:23 AM – Dziva Mawere: What if other voices say that in their experiences it ain’t broken and no need to assert functionality
25/10/2016, 9:26 AM – Adv T Mavula: *SUMMARY SYNOPSIS OF ISSUES/QTNS RAISED IN RELATION to Executive Orders* (opinion)

*#1*-After dismissal of the extradition of M.Mawere matter on 29 June 2004, the *Minister of Justice* declared Mawere a specified person in terms of the PCA.
*#2*- The Minister declared all companies under Mawere specified in terms of PCA n investigator appointed.
*#3*- On 3 September 2004 the Minister issued SI 187/2004 which was followed by a Recon Order on 6 September.
*#4*- The order was issued in terms of s4 Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures)(Recon of State-Indebted Insolvent Co) regulations (promulgated by the *President* on 3 September)
*#5*- In terms of the Recon order an administrator of the company was appointed.

*Issues arising*

*ad #1*
-The minister went on to specify Mawere when a competent court had ruled and dismissed on the extradition case which was prosecuted based on provisions of the PCA. The facts relied upon didn’t find substance leading to the acquittal yet the minister used the same facts to specify. In this instance he disregarded the finding of the courts which the GoZ had approached and sought extradition and prosecution of Mawere. The matter/facts would have been red judicata. The specification also violated the audi alter paterum rule which requires each party to be afforded equal opportunity to state their cases before a finding can be made in the interest of even handed justice and equity of arms.

The specification of the shareholder in his personal capacity didn’t resonate with the principal that a company is a legal person capable of being sued and sue in its name- the corporate veil was unduly pierced.

*ad #2 & #3*

In issuing the Recon Order the Minister acted as complainant, judge, jury and executioner. He had no judicial authority to make a finding and alter rights in the company by incapacitating its directors and appointing an administrator to run its affairs and control its transactions. This was a domain for the judiciary not executive discretion.

*ad #4*

The basis of the Recon regulations was the promulgation by the President via his Presidential Powers (Emergency Regulations), these defeat the tenants of the Rule of Law in that they defeat the duty of the legislature to make law. The effect of these powers is that they allow for smuggling in of new law unjustly or without the consultation afforded by the legislative law making process. Law should be certain and the Presidential Powers render the law unpredictable as at any time and at any instigation he may facilitate the fast track making of law.

*ad #5*

What is the extent which a minister can limit rights via an executive decree and issue a further order to empower a creature of statute to take over the vested rights of the company or its shareholders…
25/10/2016, 9:27 AM – Adv T Mavula: *SUMMARY SYNOPSIS OF ISSUES/QTNS RAISED IN RELATION to Executive Orders* (opinion)

*Extradition*
Following the granting of the Cession Order between SMM and Petter for payment of sums owed to Petter by SMM from SAS, the RBZ became interested and alleged violation of Exchange Control regulations. SMM executives were summoned by RBZ and ordered to rescind the Cession Agreement or face arrest. The agreement was construed as a ploy by Mawere to divert funds due to SMM and a charge in terms of CPE Act (Fraud & Externalisation) was made on 17 May 2004. An application for bringing Mawere to face the charges (immediate arrest and extradition) in Zim was made to the DPP SA. He was arrested on a warrant issued 24 May 04 by Pretoria Magistrate, given bail 27 May 04 and matter dismissed on 29 June 04.

*#1*-After dismissal of the extradition of M.Mawere matter on 29 June 2004, the *Minister of Justice* declared Mawere a specified person in terms of the PCA.
*#2*- The Minister declared all companies under Mawere specified in terms of PCA n investigator appointed.
*#3*- On 3 September 2004 the Minister issued SI 187/2004 which was followed by a Recon Order on 6 September.
*#4*- The order was issued in terms of s4 Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures)(Recon of State-Indebted Insolvent Co) regulations (promulgated by the *President* on 3 September)
*#5*- In terms of the Recon order an administrator of the company was appointed.

*Issues arising*

*per Extradition*

The court dismissed the charges and ruled that no crime had been committed taking cognisance of the Cession Order that had been granted earlier. Beyond this point and ruling there was no longer any basis for the Minister to specify or issue the Recon order as a court had found against the facts he sought to rely on .

*ad #1*
-The minister went on to specify Mawere when a competent court had ruled and dismissed on the extradition case which was prosecuted based on provisions of the PCA. The facts relied upon didn’t find substance leading to the acquittal yet the minister used the same facts to specify. In this instance he disregarded the finding of the courts which the GoZ had approached and sought extradition and prosecution of Mawere. The matter/facts would have been red judicata. The specification also violated the audi alter paterum rule which requires each party to be afforded equal opportunity to state their cases before a finding can be made in the interest of even handed justice and equity of arms.

The specification of the shareholder in his personal capacity didn’t resonate with the principal that a company is a legal person capable of being sued and sue in its name- the corporate veil was unduly pierced.

*ad #2 & #3*

In issuing the Recon Order the Minister acted as complainant, judge, jury and executioner. He had no judicial authority to make a finding and alter rights in the company by incapacitating its directors and appointing an administrator to run its affairs and control its transactions. This was a domain for the judiciary not executive discretion.

*ad #4*

The basis of the Recon regulations was the promulgation by the President via his Presidential Powers (Emergency Regulations), these defeat the tenants of the Rule of Law in that they defeat the duty of the legislature to make law. The effect of these powers is that they allow for smuggling in of new law unjustly or without the consultation afforded by the legislative law making process. Law should be certain and the Presidential Powers render the law unpredictable as at any time and at any instigation he may facilitate the fast track making of law.

*ad #5*

What is the extent which a minister can limit rights via an executive decree and issue a further order to empower a creature of statute to take over the vested rights of the company or its shareholders…

This is not exhaustive as a host of Constitutional rights and technicalities arise form these findings
25/10/2016, 9:27 AM – Adv T Mavula: Apologies . attend to the second post
25/10/2016, 9:29 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Functionality and enforcement is something contestable in the public square and the constitutional court adjudicates.
25/10/2016, 9:31 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Talk of functionality whe HE publicly threatens judges
25/10/2016, 9:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: That is a different question but how do we contextualise the issues so that we don’t depart from the great methodical learning experience. There are already questions in the public square. Is it not more efficient to dispose of prior questions and then proceed to deal with the many important questions about functionality and enforcement using a concrete case study as a reference point?
25/10/2016, 9:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: No one doubts this?
25/10/2016, 9:40 AM – Dziva Mawere: In the papers regarding extradition were any allegations made as at 22 May 2004 that SMM was state indebted?
25/10/2016, 11:00 AM – Dziva Mawere: Please tune in on www.the1873fm.com for a conversation on the challenges of building constitutional democracies in post colonial Africa.

Zimbabwe is +36 yrs old and the uphill journey of building a diverse, just, and inclusive post-colonial dispensation is not an illusion.

A group Friends of Zimbabwe is seized with the question of building a shared understanding of what constitutionalism is and what it is not.

It uses the facts and experiences of SMM to resolve some of the key and fundamental issues of nation-state building.

What can we learn about the link between the respect of the rule of law and prosperity?

Please add your voice your voice to the conversations of our time and generation.

Tune in at 11am today.
25/10/2016, 11:02 AM – Wildfire 1873: Please tune in on www.the1873fm.com for a conversation on the challenges of building constitutional democracies in post colonial Africa.

Zimbabwe is +36 yrs old and the uphill journey of building a diverse, just, and inclusive post-colonial dispensation is not an illusion.

A group Friends of Zimbabwe is seized with the question of building a shared understanding of what constitutionalism is and what it is not.

It uses the facts and experiences of SMM to resolve some of the key and fundamental issues of nation-state building.

What can we learn about the link between the respect of the rule of law and prosperity?

Please add your voice your voice to the conversations of our time and generation.

Tune in at 11am today.
25/10/2016, 11:13 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Would we accept a white person for President?
25/10/2016, 11:13 AM – TinasheMpasiri: He is a human being right?
25/10/2016, 11:14 AM – Dziva Mawere: Is there any word in the constitution that speaks to whites as a category with superior or inferior rights?
25/10/2016, 11:15 AM – Doc 1873: I think I did respond to those questions already and someone added property rights even
25/10/2016, 11:22 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: I am sorry but is this a serious question?
25/10/2016, 11:23 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Question is more…are we ready for change?
25/10/2016, 11:23 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Should one start re-evaluating the company that one keeps?
25/10/2016, 11:24 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Well, our flag has a black line right?
25/10/2016, 11:26 AM – Dziva Mawere: Can we at the very least live up to the FOSMM promise by refusing2be diverted from the agenda that seeks to advance scholarship based on real challenges
25/10/2016, 11:26 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What is going on right now?
25/10/2016, 11:27 AM – Dziva Mawere: I am not sure where the destination is meant to be?
25/10/2016, 11:28 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What is all this about white people as president and superior intellect and flags?
25/10/2016, 11:30 AM – Dziva Mawere: We can’t seek a higher moral ground when we excel at the opposite
25/10/2016, 11:30 AM – ‪+27 81 258 1632‬ left
25/10/2016, 11:31 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What are you on about? Why is this even a question?
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – Shingai Ndoro: We have time to talk racism 101?

Nxaaaa
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – Dziva Mawere: I am in agreement with you
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: How sensitive this issue is, is as serious as how inclusive and sensitive the so called constitution drafters need to be
25/10/2016, 11:33 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: There is nothing sensitive about this issue, it’s a silly issue. Of course a white person can be president! Hello
25/10/2016, 11:33 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We tend to shy away from the obvious issues that our constitution alienates other people from active participation from national issues and governance and makes it impossible to advance their interests because 36 years ago…they were led by Smith
25/10/2016, 11:34 AM – Dziva Mawere: I think we can create another group to address this important question
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 👍🏾Point taken. That was my point exactly
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: The constitution does not stop any Zimbabwean from being President as long as they are 40 years old. And no, “they” were not led by Smith, WE WERE ALL led by Smith
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: 👋🏾👋🏾
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – Shingai Ndoro: 👌🏿
25/10/2016, 11:36 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Sorry.. wasnt there
25/10/2016, 11:37 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Then you can’t be president for another 4 years. Sorry
25/10/2016, 11:37 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Uri right because we dont want to personalise these serious issues, plus you know what, we need proper space as Zimbabweans to discuss the finer issues of democracy, but the primary issue is to remove the stumbling block, Zanu Pf, we cant talk about property rights when Zanu is entreched, lets deal with primary issues first i.e how best to remove the beast called Zanu pf then we can discuss the rest.
25/10/2016, 11:38 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 😀😀Even more. But is Zimbabwe ready for a White president to lead the NTA
25/10/2016, 11:38 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Somebody sent me that one
25/10/2016, 11:39 AM – Dziva Mawere: Is that the question for this forum?
25/10/2016, 11:41 AM – Munya 1873: This chat has been very eye opening I strongly agree that because of lack of knowledge people perish . The things we were made to believe and I now know through this group it’s amazing .
25/10/2016, 11:41 AM – Dziva Mawere: Should we keep on going back and forth or forwards
25/10/2016, 11:42 AM – Munya 1873: Forward and forward
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: With all due respect MM, Zimbabweans know what is wrong with our country. It’s as simple and straightforward. ..ZANUPF. There won’t be change until its gone…I speak under correction. And if thisis not worth attention, then I have no idea what is. I will recoil into my hole and fold my arms and 😷
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – Dziva Mawere: @27795175356 can we move forward and leave it to aspiring whites to seek mandates from relevant actors
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – ‪+263 73 378 2490‬: Race, color or skin type are not an issue as long as one can is eligible and accepted as a candidate and gets the required votes as per our constitution….the FOSMM issue is beyond skin type , black, blue, white it can happen
25/10/2016, 11:44 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Racism, ethnicity and sexism is fodder for the simpletons!
25/10/2016, 11:44 AM – Dziva Mawere: Let us focus on facts so that those who wish to determine the suitability of incumbents and their potential successors may subject them to objective tests including attitude to constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 11:45 AM – Primose 1873: True
25/10/2016, 11:45 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: And you think the current government is full of them, simpletons????
25/10/2016, 11:46 AM – Dziva Mawere: Fortunately our heritage with institutions is not rich and we may be the first or second generation to use them as a way of life
25/10/2016, 11:46 AM – Dziva Mawere: The actors in government reflects all of us. It is microcosm of what we are and the depth we can sink in.
25/10/2016, 11:49 AM – ‪+263 73 378 2490‬: 👍🏾
25/10/2016, 11:49 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Yes they do but not by our own design, ministers are not voted into ministries they are appointed, which is why we have ministers who brag in public that they only went to xul up to grade three yet they are ministers, we have ministers who brag in public gatherings that they smoke marijuana and it’s good for them, this is because the criteria for appointment has nothing to do with ability but rather war records
25/10/2016, 11:50 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I know we discussing constitutionalism but with the current government that paper is exactly what it is just a paper
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Riddle me this one : Lots of intelligent people in Zimbabwe. ..but no true and genuine leaders?
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – Dziva Mawere: You may be shocked that the power to appoint flows directly from an ancestor. We are the ancestors of governmental power. We own the government yet temporary actors play football on our inability to organise
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾
25/10/2016, 11:52 AM – Shingai Ndoro: I have come across intensely educated idiots!
25/10/2016, 11:52 AM – Dziva Mawere: A genius has one vote and an idiot as also one vote. There in lies the challenge that framers of qualified franchise sought to give life to.
25/10/2016, 11:53 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Like zvogbo said problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them, somebody has been a minister since 1980, to him heading a ministry has nothing to do with service delivery but rather it’s a right he earned by participating in ours war of liberation
25/10/2016, 11:53 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Zvobgo wasn’t the originator of that!
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Kkkkkkki l can’t disagree comrade, l only heard from him
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I know.
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Don’t make a claim without verification.

When you heard it from him, he ddnt claim to be the originator.
25/10/2016, 11:55 AM – Dziva Mawere: Indeed
25/10/2016, 11:56 AM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: The principal objectives of the Trust are:-

7.1) To advocate and promote culture and practise that respects the rule of law, people and their property, and unwavering implementation of the national constitution.

7.2) To enrich and enlighten its members with knowledge about the often forgotten African corporate citizens and their actors in bridging the gaps of poverty and inequality.

7.3) To create, initiate and provide a platform for discussing cooperate heritage issues, sharing ideas, insights, experience, problems as well as solutions.

7.4) To seek to influence government proposals and existing legislation by utilising the expertise of our members.

7.5) To assist the membership in their intellectual and conceptual development and in playing their parts as active and vigilant citizens.

7.6) To receive and accepts gifts and bequests of money and other assets donated to the trust for the purpose of financing its activities.

7.7) To provide a Pan African network of peer co-ordinators for fellowship and institutional building.

7.8) To interact with other organisations and individual to accomplish these ends.

7.9) To build strong national network of actors who share a common belief that Africa can lift itself up when the role of state and non-state actors is properly balanced and located.

7.10) To identify and share good practise and to promote values of the organisation.

7.11) To do all things as are incidental or conducive to the foregoing objectives.
25/10/2016, 11:56 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I don’t see how this is a major issue, seems like you are polarizing the argument
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah neh…even if Zvobgo ddint say that…wht the hell are we doing negotiating a settlement with a recycled material thatbhas been to ashes and back?
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: This group would have been functional in a functioning democracy like SA. Our major problem now is we have a vampire that is sucking blood, before we sit down to discuss anything else we must remove the vampire from society. SMM complains of property rights because of this vampire, police do not do their work properly because of this vampire, security agents do not know their role because of this vampire, people are dying of treatable diseases because of this vampire, we are diasporians because of this vampire, You talk of property rights some of us do not have property because of this vampire, I feel safe in Joburg than in Harare because of this vampire, Zimdef money is gone because of this vampire. The house is on fire, lets put out the fire first. Lets direct all these energy and intelligence on how to stop the vampire from sucking further blood then we can discuss other issues.
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – Munya 1873: True and genuine leaders are there and plenty !!!! They are overshadowed by the plenty that are on the other side
25/10/2016, 11:58 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I have been trying to say this. I couldn’t have put it in a better way!
25/10/2016, 11:58 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Really. . Name them
25/10/2016, 11:59 AM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Least we 4get Gen Josh was a geuine leader.bt he got cornered.
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let us leave the question for another day for the correct people
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Zvogbo was a genuine leader.
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: Can we focus on the subject of the day.
25/10/2016, 12:01 PM – Dziva Mawere: Leaders are the prerogative of the people the constitution and laws clothe power with
25/10/2016, 12:03 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I will forever salute Joshua Nkomo…a leader knows when he to throw in the towel.. for the sake of his people. HAS ANYONE IMAGINED WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO THE NDEBELE HAD NKOMO NOT SETTLED FOR NUTS🙊🙊🙊🙊
25/10/2016, 12:03 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah…he made Mugabe!!!!!
25/10/2016, 12:04 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: We let jm dwn.it ws never supposed to b a qtn of him n the ndebele vs mugabe
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We had our Gabriel…who would have cared!
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: It virtually impossible to critic the Zim situation and comedy with ideas to move foward as a nation without pointing fingers at zanu pf

Asking what Zimbabwe would do after getting rid of zanu is like asking what the world would do after it got rid of Hiv/Aids, the question is not relevant at the moment, it should be an after thought, because the primary concern is clear
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let him RIP. This platform allows the living to stake their claim on facts.
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: A village boy, Nkomo morphed into one of Africa’s best sons. Not as charming or glamorous as Mandela but he was very special all on his own!
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: *come up not comedy
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+263 71 803 0691‬: Zimbabwe is short of leaders who think and act highmindedly and has got the majority of its citizens seeing good governance as nothing beyond bread and butter issues.
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬:
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I tried to be funny ysday when I posted a clip from Forbidden Kingdom about Two tigers on one mountain and was admonished. That was my point
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Pandora kune chinhu chinonzi priority, what do we do first
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: #Remove the cancer and breath…only then can we be able to assess and evaluate our situation
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: The house is on fire and you are talking about good leaders.
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: we hv leaders bt who cn stand against d barel of a gun unless he also b armed n shielded?
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Quench the fire first or you burn inside
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – Dziva Mawere: 👍👍👍This is proving impossible on this platform. No wonder why one little guy has had 36 years of fun at Statehouse
25/10/2016, 12:10 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Mandela is nowhere near Nkomo friend…Mandela is artificial. ..a product of White South Africans when they realised change was inevitable. So please dont ever compare my leader with Mandela. He was a good person and progressive and he saw the bigger picture…but Nkomo had to wear a dress to run away from Robert. How is that 😡😡😡
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – Dziva Mawere: Nkomo died a VP in Mugabe’s crew. He ran his race and we can’t change the facts of history.
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+263 73 374 9474‬: Missed the topic of today
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Take note we got CIOs in our midst
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: We need a transition in which economic decisions are made using business ethics and not along political lines but zanu pf won’t allow it, they want to have control of everything and anything for the sake of just being in control, they aren’t empathetic, in fact in Zimbabwe today there is some form of apartheid, we have a superior class, your kasukuweres, Obert mpofus etc, so the way l see it the first and only move is to remove zanu pf
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: You’re entitled to your own opinion but not facts.
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Didn’t you just say you are under 36 years old? Can you honestly make these comparisons? And to what aim? How is this even relevant to anything. Robin Williams wore a dress as Mrs Doubtfire, is he perhaps better than Mandela?
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: MM your class is very loud today😁
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Mabox i cnt seperate economics n politics
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: Who do u propose to lead that transition?
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Mr Mawere i saw you on Channel 405 i was happy that you were on the panel lists. However i was very shocked and dissapointed with some of your views, Mugabe is not a little men. If he was little you would not be crying about your SMM that you lost, like it or not he has made himself a demigod because of people like you naan Zvobgo ivavo who delayed in confronting him muchidya naye muchifara, pamakatorerwa zvinhu hanzi mavara azara ivhu. Dont lie to people Mugabe is not a simple man you are lying.
25/10/2016, 12:14 PM – Dziva Mawere: Before we talk about transition, has it occurred to you that real lessons about good statecraft and governance are easily lost to endless opinions about a person rather than a system
25/10/2016, 12:14 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Why not the Chinese do it, they don’t like America but it’s still their biggest debtor
25/10/2016, 12:15 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How do you change the system if the head of the system prefers it the way it is, l say in such a case remove the head
25/10/2016, 12:15 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Lol…yes I am😁. Are u seriously saying I am not supposed to know these things? I have been fortunate to be exposed to most cultures, races and tribes…speak 7 languages including #foullanguage🙂
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Pandora you are agreeing the solution is to remove Zanu pf first then you can do what you are suggesting.
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: So yes. ..I know how a black Zimbabwean and a white Zimbabwean vs a South African vs a Btitish think
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Does anyone like America?
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – Dziva Mawere: Indeed let us set up a forum to talk about Mugabe’s shortcomings and see whether his absence will deliver a better promise than constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Yes
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We cant talk about our constitution with Mugabe at the helm.
25/10/2016, 12:18 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Not Mugabe the Zanu Pf system must be removed mr Mawere
25/10/2016, 12:18 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅✅✅,that would be idealistic
25/10/2016, 12:19 PM – Dziva Mawere: Mugabe is not the constitution
25/10/2016, 12:19 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: So…when is Zimbabwe uniting against evil
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: He doesn’t have respect for it. He runs a house of thugs and thieves MM
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Ideally he is civil servant but as things stand he is a demi God, zanu made him into one
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 73 374 9474‬: As long a politics remains a career we won’t go anywhere. That’s the mistake we made in 1980. (We now have professional MPs, ministers etc). As long as that mentality remains we are stuck!
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Mugabe is the Supreme Leader he does not care about the constitution and so are his Ministers and government.
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅
25/10/2016, 12:21 PM – Munya 1873: 👏🏿👏🏿
25/10/2016, 12:21 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I want a white Person to lead the NTA
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: @263772573823 it’s now mvengemvenge here a hotchpotch of political ideas
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: It took a few hours to arrest Evan mawarire over unconfirmed allegations that he had stolen a police button stick, yet it’s been weeks the anti corruption commission has declared it has evidence Jonathan moyo abused public funds yet he is walking Scott free
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – Dziva Mawere: Because we don’t care as shown here about understanding what constitutionalism is all about.
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Class is loud today
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – Dziva Mawere: In what capacity do you make this wish?
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 1. Constitutional right
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are confirming the opposite of constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Mr Mawere with your clout, intelligence and abilities you should be helping Zimbabweans how to to remove Zanu pf . Encouraging youth to vote so as to change things kwete these SMM please we neef your voice.
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Kkkkkkki this also wrong it shouldn’t be about color, it should be about merit
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 2. I don’t trust a Gandanga
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: Then let the call be made to a platform that needs it.
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – ‪+263 71 803 0691‬: Is that MM’s duty or everyone’s including you?
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – Dziva Mawere: That is why we are trying to use real and hard facts to show that under Mugabe the promise of independence was betrayed by real conduct
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 3. We can erase the myth of racism just like that!
25/10/2016, 12:26 PM – Dziva Mawere: We set up a group to coalesce views around facts and what do we surrender to?
25/10/2016, 12:26 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: Why white if I may ask
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I think what he meant is mm being a public figure, his voice might be a little louder than ours however it doesn’t alleviate any of us from responsibility
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are encouraging a fruitless enterprise with no destination
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: People are angry and emotional that’s all. Apologies
25/10/2016, 12:28 PM – Dziva Mawere: We need a voice that speaks to shared values rather than expecting me to be another Mugabe with a sharp tongue when none is required to inspire hope.
25/10/2016, 12:28 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are not people but an individual. Let us not behave as animals.
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Really now…plz dont burden this man…he has suffered the wrath of Robert. We can’t do this to him. We …the born free generation my vote ZanuPf out of power
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Mutumwa we nid yo as an influential leader
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How do you tell your little son or daughter every morning to work hard in school because it pays off when you have three degrees but you are selling harurwa and masawu to make a living

Nxa zanu pf has stolen more than our constitutional rights, it has destroyed our hopes and dreams
25/10/2016, 12:30 PM – Munya 1873: It’s not who votes that matters it’s who counts the votes who matters in Zim .
25/10/2016, 12:31 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: MM would you be President?
25/10/2016, 12:31 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah neh😏…almost forgot
25/10/2016, 12:32 PM – Dziva Mawere: I have facts that can be shared so that the opposition is not reduced to making slogans.
25/10/2016, 12:33 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We don’t want an oppositin. We need a united front to remove ZanuPf
25/10/2016, 12:34 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: If u the champion of that…u got my vote
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – Dziva Mawere: That is a wrong question. We need to appreciate that prescripts of the constitution in terms of Presidential Powers and not get a successor who is like Mugabe and pisses on all the people with impunity.
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – Morelife: Then if you remove ZANU PF how will it help Zimbabwe and yourself
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Priority is removin zanu pf then …..we wl deal with the aftermath wn we gt there
25/10/2016, 12:36 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Fresh start, how is keeping zanu pf helping the masses???
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Wel said Pandora.
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – Morelife: Dont you think its a dangerous dream that will bring our country to Libya way
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – Wildfire 1873: https://soundcloud.com/the-1873-network-962541670/interrogating-the-executive-order-3
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – Dziva Mawere: You got valid observations and we need to raise awareness of the true intended role of a constitutional President. An imperial head of state is not provided for in the constitution. How do we educate even Mugabe and his Justice cluster that when the facts of SMM are examined, Mugabe should not be near any government office.
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: No libya.hw is keeping zanu helpim anyone?
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: You like corruption, thieving, unemployment, bond notes, poor education system, underpaid civil service, drought year every year because of poor farming practices,

Saka chakanakira zanu chii nhai???
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – Dziva Mawere: We can only unite on values based on shared facts. Which option you seem determined not to realise
25/10/2016, 12:39 PM – Dziva Mawere: I don’t deserve your vote but your patience to allow facts to take us somewhere
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – Dziva Mawere: There are failed careers that started in 1980 wanting to remove ZANU-PF without realising that it is just a construct and the real action takes place in the name of government where the resources of the people are privatised. There is no word in the constitution that talks of ZANU-PF being entitled to limit your rights and freedom. Let us refuse to chase shadows.
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – Shingai Ndoro: It’s now time wasting and energy sapping. Debilitating!
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Lybia did not remove Gaddafi…America did…and Zim is worse than Lybia right now
25/10/2016, 12:44 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: Very true
25/10/2016, 12:45 PM – ‪+27 78 948 9362‬: Am following
25/10/2016, 12:48 PM – Dziva Mawere: And exhausting
25/10/2016, 12:49 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: I do agree with some arguments here and there is a lot we can learn considering our zim experience on property rights, freedom of expression n all. The question is, have we really leant anything yet n how has that influenced our decisions? Forums like these are good but without action plan it remains academic without any tangible result. If we really love our country we should go beyond an awareness of our problems but solution to our problems n get boots down in reviving the dead.
25/10/2016, 12:53 PM – Morelife: Very true because we will remove a system and replace it with rhe system in a different name. Rather lets research on how did we build the so called demigods then come up with solutions on destroying it and come up with a fool proof system for the good of our kids and their kids
25/10/2016, 12:55 PM – Morelife: What proof do we have that if we rwmove ZANU PF we wont replace it with a zanu pf in another name
25/10/2016, 12:55 PM – Dziva Mawere: But I am sure you will agree that we need a glue to bind us. We need to consolidate our views based on facts. Allow facts to give motion
25/10/2016, 12:57 PM – Dziva Mawere: ZANU-PF is a club of members whose activities without its actors being in government will be inconsequential yet we who believe in constitutionalism allows a non issue to dominate conversations. We need to make government actors accountable for their role in government and not a party of members.
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – Adv T Mavula: Following the discussions going on in the forum I am tempted to say we are losing the objectives gradually. Everyone has an opinion as to what is Zimbabwe’s problem some similar and some diverse. We all know the causes of Zimbabwean problems imagined and real…

How government is supposed to change and who should come in to lead we can debate forever.

Now understand this bit if you will…the focus of FOSMM is to strengthen the institutions whether under Mugabe or after….whether its possible now or not is another matter but our thrust and indeed the aim of this platform is to pursue that trajectory. How and who or when gvt has to change to who is not a core issue of this discourse .

Systems and individuals change but institutions remain and they have to be strengthened to safeguard against the current quagmire.

Our approach is simple…we have taken the SMM case study to make references and take lessons in the attempt to discuss and build stronger institutions.

I implore us all to stand guided accordingly lest we turn this platform into something and duplicates every other platform we are on. We come with different issues we want to share but they may not be necessarily appropriate here. The agenda is already set in the objectives and anything outside that isn’t democracy but a blatant disregard of what FOSMM stands for.

Good Day

Adv T Mavula
(Chair FOSMM)
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: Agreed, hope we will find one another and focus on those things that will help us create a system we want n a better Zimbabwe for all
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – Shingai Ndoro: I have issued the same caution since yesterday.
25/10/2016, 1:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: When we are disciplined and focused, no human giant will stand against facts
25/10/2016, 1:04 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Point taken👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽
25/10/2016, 1:05 PM – Adv T Mavula: If you are new and need clarity on the journey that you have joined feel free to engage with myself or any older member so we can move on e same plane and understanding or visit us at www.fosmm.org or follow on twitter @FriendsOfSMM
25/10/2016, 1:05 PM – ‪+263 77 248 6483‬: Zvobgo!!! This is the guy who crafted the executive president which turned Mugabe into a demi devil…he thoughtbhe will replace Mugabe..
25/10/2016, 1:06 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I hope you been listening to the chairman.
25/10/2016, 1:06 PM – Adv T Mavula: Or like our Facebook page Friends of Shabanie Mashaba Mines Holdings Pvt Ltd
25/10/2016, 1:09 PM – Raphael 1873: Good Afternoon Comrades, My name is Raphael Moyo, a Friend oF SMM and a person who is working on our website called www.fosmm.org. Please go to the website browse through, register and advise how best we can build our platform to invest through sharing of experiences on issues related to the role that the state and non-state actors including firms, institutions and their actors can play in delivering the promise of inclusive, caring, prosperous, sustainable and progressive human societies.
25/10/2016, 1:12 PM – Raphael 1873: As Adv Thuto has already said above, we have a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Friends-of-SMM-Holdings-Pvt-Ltd-747832045358920/ and our twitter page: https://twitter.com/FriendsofSMM. Please Like those pages and share.
25/10/2016, 1:13 PM – Dziva Mawere: @raphael have you posted the extradition papers and the affidavits of February 2004 on the FOSMM website to use as reference. Also include the documents prepared for Justice Kriegler
25/10/2016, 1:18 PM – Adv T Mavula: *IMPORTANT NOTICE*

Be hereby advised that the FOSMM Executive has decided to approach the courts and prosecute legal legal action in the name of FOSMM flowing from the discussions that have been happening on this and other related platforms since inception. There has been input and debate via the Radio 1873FM that has also motivated this move. The form and substance of the proceedings will be discussed and shared in due course.

Be sure to participate in this discussion starring at 14:00hr this afternoon by tuning in to www.the1873fm.com

Let your voice be heard!

Chair (FOSMM)
25/10/2016, 1:19 PM – Dziva Mawere: 👋🏾👋🏾👋🏾👋🏾
25/10/2016, 1:23 PM – Norman FOSMM: 71 Property rights
(1) In this section—
“pension benefit” means a pension, annuity, gratuity or similar allowance which is payable—
(a) to any person from the Consolidated Revenue Fund;
(b) in respect of a person’s service with an employer;
(c) in respect of a person’s ill-health or injury; or
(d) in respect of a person’s retirement through age or ill-health or any other reason;
and includes a commutation of such a pension, annuity, gratuity or allowance and a refund of contributions
paid towards such a pension, annuity, gratuity or allowance;
“property” means property of any description and any right or interest in property.
(2) Subject to section 72, every person has the right, in any part of Zimbabwe, to acquire, hold, occupy, use,
transfer, hypothecate, lease or dispose of all forms of property, either individually or in association with others.
(3) Subject to this section and to section 72, no person may be compulsorily deprived of their property except
where the following conditions are satisfied—
(a) the deprivation is in terms of a law of general application;
(b) the deprivation is necessary for any of the following reasons—
(i) in the interests of defence, public safety, public order, public morality, public health or town
and country planning; or
(ii) in order to develop or use that or any other property for a purpose beneficial to the community;
(c) the law requires the acquiring authority—
(i) to give reasonable notice of the intention to acquire the property to everyone whose interest or
right in the property would be affected by the acquisition;
(ii) to pay fair and adequate compensation for the acquisition before acquiring the property or
within a reasonable time after the acquisition; and
(iii) if the acquisition is contested, to apply to a competent court before acquiring the property,
or not later than thirty days after the acquisition, for an order confirming the acquisition;
(d) the law entitles any person whose property has been acquired to apply to a competent court for the
prompt return of the property if the court does not confirm the acquisition; and
(e) the law entitles any claimant for compensation to apply to a competent court for the determination
of— (i) the existence, nature and value of their interest in the property concerned;
(ii) the legality of the deprivation; and
(iii) the amount of compensation to which they are entitled;
and to apply to the court for an order directing the prompt payment of any compensation.
(4) Where a person has a vested or contingent right to the payment of a pension benefit, a law which provides
for the extinction or diminution of that right is regarded, for the purposes of subsection (3), as a law providing for
the compulsory acquisition of property.
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: Good start
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: How do we frame the questions?
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Norman FOSMM: 12 Forfeiture or vesting in State of rights held by culpable persons
(1) The administrator shall cancel or nullify any share, right or interest in or claim upon a company under reconstruction purportedly held by a culpable person which was obtained by or resulted from any fraud committed by the culpable person.
(2) Any share, right or interest in or claim upon a company under reconstruction held by a culpable person that is not a share, right or interest in or claim upon the company referred to in subsection (1) and which properly vests in a culpable person shall, with effect from the date he or she becomes a culpable person in terms of section 9(8), vest in the State, which, in consideration therefor, shall apply the same by way of set-off towards discharging the culpable person’s liability for any or all of the debts and liabilities of the company.
(3) The administrator may, in accordance with a scheme of reconstruction—
(a) consolidate or redivide any shares referred to in subsection (2) into any number of shares of any denomination equivalent to the true or fair value of the shares previously held by the culpable person;
(b) convert any right, interest or claim referred to in subsection (2) into shares equal in value to the true or fair value of the right, claim or interest previously held by the culpable person;
and the shares resulting from the exercise of the administrator’s powers under paragraph (a) or (b) shall be issued to the State.
25/10/2016, 1:25 PM – Norman FOSMM: peruse section 71 of the constitution and cmpare it with section 12 of the RECON ACT
25/10/2016, 1:27 PM – Norman FOSMM: @MDM….What is it that that was robbed from you under the auspices of the RECON ACT….
25/10/2016, 1:32 PM – Dziva Mawere: Should it be about me or the principles of constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 1:40 PM – Norman FOSMM: wanted to open minds…..using the practical situation of SMM
25/10/2016, 1:41 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let us start with the proper role of public office bearers in a constitutional democratic order.
25/10/2016, 1:49 PM – Norman FOSMM: 86 Limitation of rights and freedoms
(1) The fundamental rights and freedoms set out in this Chapter must be exercised reasonably and with due regard
for the rights and freedoms of other persons.
(2) The fundamental rights and freedoms set out in this Chapter may be limited only in terms of a law of general
application and to the extent that the limitation is fair, reasonable, necessary and justifiable in a democratic
society based on openness, justice, human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all
relevant factors, including—
(a) the nature of the right or freedom concerned;
(b) the purpose of the limitation, in particular whether it is necessary in the interests of defence, public
safety, public order, public morality, public health, regional or town planning or the general
public interest;
(c) the nature and extent of the limitation;
(d) the need to ensure that the enjoyment of rights and freedoms by any person does not prejudice the rights
and freedoms of others;
(e) the relationship between the limitation and its purpose, in particular whether it imposes greater restrictions
on the right or freedom concerned than are necessary to achieve its purpose; and
(f) whether there are any less restrictive means of achieving the purpose of the limitation.
25/10/2016, 1:49 PM – Raphael 1873: Extraditions papers can be found on: http://fosmm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/EXTRADITION-PAPERS.pdf
25/10/2016, 1:53 PM – Norman FOSMM: CONSTITUTIONALISM_…..the first question that arises is whether or not the limitation contained within the RECON ACT remains constitutional or falls within the limit provided for in terms of s86 of the constitutional?
25/10/2016, 2:15 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: The challenge remains,,how do we foster this culture
25/10/2016, 2:16 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Where does it start and end,,what the yardstick to measure the success there of
25/10/2016, 3:55 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: we resist and reject unconstitutional things
25/10/2016, 3:56 AM – ‪+1 (780) 838-1646‬: decline in unconsttnal is one way to see impact of resistance and rejection of unconstnal things
25/10/2016, 5:39 AM – Shingai Ndoro: @17808381646 do you now know anything about Smoothnest?
25/10/2016, 6:02 AM – Dziva Mawere: Thanks. I am sure you will agree that constitutionalism is work in progress that needs our hands on the deck to best realize it.
25/10/2016, 6:21 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How does an ordinary civil servant decline directives from his superiors that impede on his constitutional rights when he not only needs his monthly salary but also fears victimization, we have to assert the how part from a grass roots level, how does the small man whose options are limited fight to promote constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 6:22 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Please view the video below of how prison officers vote in Zimbabwe against their will
25/10/2016, 6:22 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬:
25/10/2016, 6:31 AM – Dziva Mawere: FYI

[25/10, 05:24] Togara Mangenje: Morning,mukoma l have often debated with you on twitter as to how much truth there is to the allegations of vote rigging in Zimbabwe, so lam wondering have you seen the video footage of a secret camera placed in chikurubi prison during election time of how prison officers vote in Zimbabwe???? For fear of victimization ndatya kuiisa pagroup
[25/10, 06:00] mdmawere1: Morning
[25/10, 06:05] Togara Mangenje: Morning have you seen it and what is your assessment
[25/10, 06:12] mdmawere1: There can be no doubt the the playing field is not level. The more you are afraid the more the unjust outcomes will becomes inevitable and predictable.

What do you want to be remembered for? A voice that finds private spaces for best expression?

We have set up this group to use the facts of an inanimate entity like SMM to answer the question whether Mugabe is and has been fit to govern Zim or any country founded on constitutionalism
[25/10, 06:13] Togara Mangenje: Ok l hear you, will communicate via our platform
[25/10, 06:16] mdmawere1: Indeed. We need to learn about how best we can begin to reframe the future of our dreams and move away from the present whose character and personality represents the opposite
[25/10, 06:30] mdmawere1: Should we share the above thread just to encourage others to find their voices in public squares?
[25/10, 06:30] Togara Mangenje: I’m okay with that mukoma
[25/10, 06:30] mdmawere1: Great
25/10/2016, 8:20 AM – Doc 1873: Good morning and yes indeed our Constitution and any other need watchdogs to police and ensure spirit of Constitution is upheld. The gvt especially one like the Zim of each will not do that but will suppress it in every way possible.
25/10/2016, 8:22 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Who is the ZW’s equivalence of SA’s Public Protector in the new constitution?
25/10/2016, 8:26 AM – Dziva Mawere: We are still skirting around the pertinent questions that Gandanga raised that has informed subsequent questions on whether using the facts and experiences of SMM, a body corporate that can’t speak about bodily violence let alone corporate invasion similar to land invasion, one can conclusively say Mugabe is and has not been fit to govern.

We need to establish from end to end how the institution of government was abused and executive power invoked for what it was never intended for.
25/10/2016, 8:28 AM – Dziva Mawere: The public is naked and as we have seen in the SMM case even if the office had been established and resourced, it would not have any prospect to resist Executive tyranny.
25/10/2016, 8:30 AM – TinasheMpasiri: http://www.herald.co.zw/29-aspiring-judges-flunk-4-opt-out/
25/10/2016, 8:59 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Human Rights Commission
25/10/2016, 9:00 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Prosecutor General
25/10/2016, 9:02 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Human Rights Commission. We used to have Ombudsman , now replaced by HR commission in the new Constitution. Prosecutor general deals with prosecutions.
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – Shingai Ndoro: That’s not correct
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – Dziva Mawere: Institution building is one thing but protecting the constitution makes better sense
25/10/2016, 9:03 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: Chect the Constitution of Zimbabwe. Prosecutor can never be ombudsman or public protector
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Dziva Mawere: Who protected SMM? Parliament or Judiciary.
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Shingai Ndoro: SA has its own separate Human Rights Commission.
25/10/2016, 9:04 AM – Dziva Mawere: It is still work in progress
25/10/2016, 9:07 AM – Doc 1873: I think we need the questions framed already by someone and then discussed because hoping that the whole group will drop in might be gambling with time. We need the lead in what will be spoken about as a program to ensure economy on time and direction. The executive can guide discussions and
25/10/2016, 9:07 AM – Doc 1873: The assemble can make suggestions of topics for further discussions and questions.
25/10/2016, 9:11 AM – Dziva Mawere: What is your take on the questions already asked by Gandanga and Wildfire?
25/10/2016, 9:13 AM – ‪+263 77 735 0451‬: SA s chapter 9 institutions are bit different from the Zim set up
25/10/2016, 9:14 AM – Dziva Mawere:
25/10/2016, 9:15 AM – Shingai Ndoro: The last question is redundant.

Zimbabwe is already a secular, constitutional and republican democracy.

We need to ask each HOW we can make it functional.
25/10/2016, 9:20 AM – Dziva Mawere: It may be on paper. But why do we need FOSMM if we can’t then use its facts to test whether promise anc reality are in sync.
25/10/2016, 9:21 AM – Dziva Mawere: We can only make something functional if we agree or negotiate consensus that it is broken and not working.
25/10/2016, 9:21 AM – Shingai Ndoro: It’s not a “may be.”

It is.

We the citizens should make it functional.
25/10/2016, 9:23 AM – Dziva Mawere: What if other voices say that in their experiences it ain’t broken and no need to assert functionality
25/10/2016, 9:26 AM – Adv T Mavula: *SUMMARY SYNOPSIS OF ISSUES/QTNS RAISED IN RELATION to Executive Orders* (opinion)

*#1*-After dismissal of the extradition of M.Mawere matter on 29 June 2004, the *Minister of Justice* declared Mawere a specified person in terms of the PCA.
*#2*- The Minister declared all companies under Mawere specified in terms of PCA n investigator appointed.
*#3*- On 3 September 2004 the Minister issued SI 187/2004 which was followed by a Recon Order on 6 September.
*#4*- The order was issued in terms of s4 Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures)(Recon of State-Indebted Insolvent Co) regulations (promulgated by the *President* on 3 September)
*#5*- In terms of the Recon order an administrator of the company was appointed.

*Issues arising*

*ad #1*
-The minister went on to specify Mawere when a competent court had ruled and dismissed on the extradition case which was prosecuted based on provisions of the PCA. The facts relied upon didn’t find substance leading to the acquittal yet the minister used the same facts to specify. In this instance he disregarded the finding of the courts which the GoZ had approached and sought extradition and prosecution of Mawere. The matter/facts would have been red judicata. The specification also violated the audi alter paterum rule which requires each party to be afforded equal opportunity to state their cases before a finding can be made in the interest of even handed justice and equity of arms.

The specification of the shareholder in his personal capacity didn’t resonate with the principal that a company is a legal person capable of being sued and sue in its name- the corporate veil was unduly pierced.

*ad #2 & #3*

In issuing the Recon Order the Minister acted as complainant, judge, jury and executioner. He had no judicial authority to make a finding and alter rights in the company by incapacitating its directors and appointing an administrator to run its affairs and control its transactions. This was a domain for the judiciary not executive discretion.

*ad #4*

The basis of the Recon regulations was the promulgation by the President via his Presidential Powers (Emergency Regulations), these defeat the tenants of the Rule of Law in that they defeat the duty of the legislature to make law. The effect of these powers is that they allow for smuggling in of new law unjustly or without the consultation afforded by the legislative law making process. Law should be certain and the Presidential Powers render the law unpredictable as at any time and at any instigation he may facilitate the fast track making of law.

*ad #5*

What is the extent which a minister can limit rights via an executive decree and issue a further order to empower a creature of statute to take over the vested rights of the company or its shareholders…
25/10/2016, 9:27 AM – Adv T Mavula: *SUMMARY SYNOPSIS OF ISSUES/QTNS RAISED IN RELATION to Executive Orders* (opinion)

*Extradition*
Following the granting of the Cession Order between SMM and Petter for payment of sums owed to Petter by SMM from SAS, the RBZ became interested and alleged violation of Exchange Control regulations. SMM executives were summoned by RBZ and ordered to rescind the Cession Agreement or face arrest. The agreement was construed as a ploy by Mawere to divert funds due to SMM and a charge in terms of CPE Act (Fraud & Externalisation) was made on 17 May 2004. An application for bringing Mawere to face the charges (immediate arrest and extradition) in Zim was made to the DPP SA. He was arrested on a warrant issued 24 May 04 by Pretoria Magistrate, given bail 27 May 04 and matter dismissed on 29 June 04.

*#1*-After dismissal of the extradition of M.Mawere matter on 29 June 2004, the *Minister of Justice* declared Mawere a specified person in terms of the PCA.
*#2*- The Minister declared all companies under Mawere specified in terms of PCA n investigator appointed.
*#3*- On 3 September 2004 the Minister issued SI 187/2004 which was followed by a Recon Order on 6 September.
*#4*- The order was issued in terms of s4 Presidential Powers (Temporary Measures)(Recon of State-Indebted Insolvent Co) regulations (promulgated by the *President* on 3 September)
*#5*- In terms of the Recon order an administrator of the company was appointed.

*Issues arising*

*per Extradition*

The court dismissed the charges and ruled that no crime had been committed taking cognisance of the Cession Order that had been granted earlier. Beyond this point and ruling there was no longer any basis for the Minister to specify or issue the Recon order as a court had found against the facts he sought to rely on .

*ad #1*
-The minister went on to specify Mawere when a competent court had ruled and dismissed on the extradition case which was prosecuted based on provisions of the PCA. The facts relied upon didn’t find substance leading to the acquittal yet the minister used the same facts to specify. In this instance he disregarded the finding of the courts which the GoZ had approached and sought extradition and prosecution of Mawere. The matter/facts would have been red judicata. The specification also violated the audi alter paterum rule which requires each party to be afforded equal opportunity to state their cases before a finding can be made in the interest of even handed justice and equity of arms.

The specification of the shareholder in his personal capacity didn’t resonate with the principal that a company is a legal person capable of being sued and sue in its name- the corporate veil was unduly pierced.

*ad #2 & #3*

In issuing the Recon Order the Minister acted as complainant, judge, jury and executioner. He had no judicial authority to make a finding and alter rights in the company by incapacitating its directors and appointing an administrator to run its affairs and control its transactions. This was a domain for the judiciary not executive discretion.

*ad #4*

The basis of the Recon regulations was the promulgation by the President via his Presidential Powers (Emergency Regulations), these defeat the tenants of the Rule of Law in that they defeat the duty of the legislature to make law. The effect of these powers is that they allow for smuggling in of new law unjustly or without the consultation afforded by the legislative law making process. Law should be certain and the Presidential Powers render the law unpredictable as at any time and at any instigation he may facilitate the fast track making of law.

*ad #5*

What is the extent which a minister can limit rights via an executive decree and issue a further order to empower a creature of statute to take over the vested rights of the company or its shareholders…

This is not exhaustive as a host of Constitutional rights and technicalities arise form these findings
25/10/2016, 9:27 AM – Adv T Mavula: Apologies . attend to the second post
25/10/2016, 9:29 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Functionality and enforcement is something contestable in the public square and the constitutional court adjudicates.
25/10/2016, 9:31 AM – ‪+27 79 236 8367‬: Talk of functionality whe HE publicly threatens judges
25/10/2016, 9:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: That is a different question but how do we contextualise the issues so that we don’t depart from the great methodical learning experience. There are already questions in the public square. Is it not more efficient to dispose of prior questions and then proceed to deal with the many important questions about functionality and enforcement using a concrete case study as a reference point?
25/10/2016, 9:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: No one doubts this?
25/10/2016, 9:40 AM – Dziva Mawere: In the papers regarding extradition were any allegations made as at 22 May 2004 that SMM was state indebted?
25/10/2016, 11:00 AM – Dziva Mawere: Please tune in on www.the1873fm.com for a conversation on the challenges of building constitutional democracies in post colonial Africa.

Zimbabwe is +36 yrs old and the uphill journey of building a diverse, just, and inclusive post-colonial dispensation is not an illusion.

A group Friends of Zimbabwe is seized with the question of building a shared understanding of what constitutionalism is and what it is not.

It uses the facts and experiences of SMM to resolve some of the key and fundamental issues of nation-state building.

What can we learn about the link between the respect of the rule of law and prosperity?

Please add your voice your voice to the conversations of our time and generation.

Tune in at 11am today.
25/10/2016, 11:02 AM – Wildfire 1873: Please tune in on www.the1873fm.com for a conversation on the challenges of building constitutional democracies in post colonial Africa.

Zimbabwe is +36 yrs old and the uphill journey of building a diverse, just, and inclusive post-colonial dispensation is not an illusion.

A group Friends of Zimbabwe is seized with the question of building a shared understanding of what constitutionalism is and what it is not.

It uses the facts and experiences of SMM to resolve some of the key and fundamental issues of nation-state building.

What can we learn about the link between the respect of the rule of law and prosperity?

Please add your voice your voice to the conversations of our time and generation.

Tune in at 11am today.
25/10/2016, 11:13 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Would we accept a white person for President?
25/10/2016, 11:13 AM – TinasheMpasiri: He is a human being right?
25/10/2016, 11:14 AM – Dziva Mawere: Is there any word in the constitution that speaks to whites as a category with superior or inferior rights?
25/10/2016, 11:15 AM – Doc 1873: I think I did respond to those questions already and someone added property rights even
25/10/2016, 11:22 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: I am sorry but is this a serious question?
25/10/2016, 11:23 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Question is more…are we ready for change?
25/10/2016, 11:23 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Should one start re-evaluating the company that one keeps?
25/10/2016, 11:24 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Well, our flag has a black line right?
25/10/2016, 11:26 AM – Dziva Mawere: Can we at the very least live up to the FOSMM promise by refusing2be diverted from the agenda that seeks to advance scholarship based on real challenges
25/10/2016, 11:26 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What is going on right now?
25/10/2016, 11:27 AM – Dziva Mawere: I am not sure where the destination is meant to be?
25/10/2016, 11:28 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What is all this about white people as president and superior intellect and flags?
25/10/2016, 11:30 AM – Dziva Mawere: We can’t seek a higher moral ground when we excel at the opposite
25/10/2016, 11:30 AM – ‪+27 81 258 1632‬ left
25/10/2016, 11:31 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: What are you on about? Why is this even a question?
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – Shingai Ndoro: We have time to talk racism 101?

Nxaaaa
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – Dziva Mawere: I am in agreement with you
25/10/2016, 11:32 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: How sensitive this issue is, is as serious as how inclusive and sensitive the so called constitution drafters need to be
25/10/2016, 11:33 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: There is nothing sensitive about this issue, it’s a silly issue. Of course a white person can be president! Hello
25/10/2016, 11:33 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We tend to shy away from the obvious issues that our constitution alienates other people from active participation from national issues and governance and makes it impossible to advance their interests because 36 years ago…they were led by Smith
25/10/2016, 11:34 AM – Dziva Mawere: I think we can create another group to address this important question
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 👍🏾Point taken. That was my point exactly
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: The constitution does not stop any Zimbabwean from being President as long as they are 40 years old. And no, “they” were not led by Smith, WE WERE ALL led by Smith
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – Dziva Mawere: 👋🏾👋🏾
25/10/2016, 11:35 AM – Shingai Ndoro: 👌🏿
25/10/2016, 11:36 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Sorry.. wasnt there
25/10/2016, 11:37 AM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Then you can’t be president for another 4 years. Sorry
25/10/2016, 11:37 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Uri right because we dont want to personalise these serious issues, plus you know what, we need proper space as Zimbabweans to discuss the finer issues of democracy, but the primary issue is to remove the stumbling block, Zanu Pf, we cant talk about property rights when Zanu is entreched, lets deal with primary issues first i.e how best to remove the beast called Zanu pf then we can discuss the rest.
25/10/2016, 11:38 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 😀😀Even more. But is Zimbabwe ready for a White president to lead the NTA
25/10/2016, 11:38 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Somebody sent me that one
25/10/2016, 11:39 AM – Dziva Mawere: Is that the question for this forum?
25/10/2016, 11:41 AM – Munya 1873: This chat has been very eye opening I strongly agree that because of lack of knowledge people perish . The things we were made to believe and I now know through this group it’s amazing .
25/10/2016, 11:41 AM – Dziva Mawere: Should we keep on going back and forth or forwards
25/10/2016, 11:42 AM – Munya 1873: Forward and forward
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: With all due respect MM, Zimbabweans know what is wrong with our country. It’s as simple and straightforward. ..ZANUPF. There won’t be change until its gone…I speak under correction. And if thisis not worth attention, then I have no idea what is. I will recoil into my hole and fold my arms and 😷
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – Dziva Mawere: @27795175356 can we move forward and leave it to aspiring whites to seek mandates from relevant actors
25/10/2016, 11:43 AM – ‪+263 73 378 2490‬: Race, color or skin type are not an issue as long as one can is eligible and accepted as a candidate and gets the required votes as per our constitution….the FOSMM issue is beyond skin type , black, blue, white it can happen
25/10/2016, 11:44 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Racism, ethnicity and sexism is fodder for the simpletons!
25/10/2016, 11:44 AM – Dziva Mawere: Let us focus on facts so that those who wish to determine the suitability of incumbents and their potential successors may subject them to objective tests including attitude to constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 11:45 AM – Primose 1873: True
25/10/2016, 11:45 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: And you think the current government is full of them, simpletons????
25/10/2016, 11:46 AM – Dziva Mawere: Fortunately our heritage with institutions is not rich and we may be the first or second generation to use them as a way of life
25/10/2016, 11:46 AM – Dziva Mawere: The actors in government reflects all of us. It is microcosm of what we are and the depth we can sink in.
25/10/2016, 11:49 AM – ‪+263 73 378 2490‬: 👍🏾
25/10/2016, 11:49 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Yes they do but not by our own design, ministers are not voted into ministries they are appointed, which is why we have ministers who brag in public that they only went to xul up to grade three yet they are ministers, we have ministers who brag in public gatherings that they smoke marijuana and it’s good for them, this is because the criteria for appointment has nothing to do with ability but rather war records
25/10/2016, 11:50 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I know we discussing constitutionalism but with the current government that paper is exactly what it is just a paper
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Riddle me this one : Lots of intelligent people in Zimbabwe. ..but no true and genuine leaders?
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – Dziva Mawere: You may be shocked that the power to appoint flows directly from an ancestor. We are the ancestors of governmental power. We own the government yet temporary actors play football on our inability to organise
25/10/2016, 11:51 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾👊🏾
25/10/2016, 11:52 AM – Shingai Ndoro: I have come across intensely educated idiots!
25/10/2016, 11:52 AM – Dziva Mawere: A genius has one vote and an idiot as also one vote. There in lies the challenge that framers of qualified franchise sought to give life to.
25/10/2016, 11:53 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Like zvogbo said problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them, somebody has been a minister since 1980, to him heading a ministry has nothing to do with service delivery but rather it’s a right he earned by participating in ours war of liberation
25/10/2016, 11:53 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Zvobgo wasn’t the originator of that!
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Kkkkkkki l can’t disagree comrade, l only heard from him
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I know.
25/10/2016, 11:54 AM – Shingai Ndoro: Don’t make a claim without verification.

When you heard it from him, he ddnt claim to be the originator.
25/10/2016, 11:55 AM – Dziva Mawere: Indeed
25/10/2016, 11:56 AM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: The principal objectives of the Trust are:-

7.1) To advocate and promote culture and practise that respects the rule of law, people and their property, and unwavering implementation of the national constitution.

7.2) To enrich and enlighten its members with knowledge about the often forgotten African corporate citizens and their actors in bridging the gaps of poverty and inequality.

7.3) To create, initiate and provide a platform for discussing cooperate heritage issues, sharing ideas, insights, experience, problems as well as solutions.

7.4) To seek to influence government proposals and existing legislation by utilising the expertise of our members.

7.5) To assist the membership in their intellectual and conceptual development and in playing their parts as active and vigilant citizens.

7.6) To receive and accepts gifts and bequests of money and other assets donated to the trust for the purpose of financing its activities.

7.7) To provide a Pan African network of peer co-ordinators for fellowship and institutional building.

7.8) To interact with other organisations and individual to accomplish these ends.

7.9) To build strong national network of actors who share a common belief that Africa can lift itself up when the role of state and non-state actors is properly balanced and located.

7.10) To identify and share good practise and to promote values of the organisation.

7.11) To do all things as are incidental or conducive to the foregoing objectives.
25/10/2016, 11:56 AM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I don’t see how this is a major issue, seems like you are polarizing the argument
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah neh…even if Zvobgo ddint say that…wht the hell are we doing negotiating a settlement with a recycled material thatbhas been to ashes and back?
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: This group would have been functional in a functioning democracy like SA. Our major problem now is we have a vampire that is sucking blood, before we sit down to discuss anything else we must remove the vampire from society. SMM complains of property rights because of this vampire, police do not do their work properly because of this vampire, security agents do not know their role because of this vampire, people are dying of treatable diseases because of this vampire, we are diasporians because of this vampire, You talk of property rights some of us do not have property because of this vampire, I feel safe in Joburg than in Harare because of this vampire, Zimdef money is gone because of this vampire. The house is on fire, lets put out the fire first. Lets direct all these energy and intelligence on how to stop the vampire from sucking further blood then we can discuss other issues.
25/10/2016, 11:57 AM – Munya 1873: True and genuine leaders are there and plenty !!!! They are overshadowed by the plenty that are on the other side
25/10/2016, 11:58 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I have been trying to say this. I couldn’t have put it in a better way!
25/10/2016, 11:58 AM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Really. . Name them
25/10/2016, 11:59 AM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Least we 4get Gen Josh was a geuine leader.bt he got cornered.
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let us leave the question for another day for the correct people
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Zvogbo was a genuine leader.
25/10/2016, 12:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: Can we focus on the subject of the day.
25/10/2016, 12:01 PM – Dziva Mawere: Leaders are the prerogative of the people the constitution and laws clothe power with
25/10/2016, 12:03 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I will forever salute Joshua Nkomo…a leader knows when he to throw in the towel.. for the sake of his people. HAS ANYONE IMAGINED WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO THE NDEBELE HAD NKOMO NOT SETTLED FOR NUTS🙊🙊🙊🙊
25/10/2016, 12:03 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah…he made Mugabe!!!!!
25/10/2016, 12:04 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: We let jm dwn.it ws never supposed to b a qtn of him n the ndebele vs mugabe
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We had our Gabriel…who would have cared!
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: It virtually impossible to critic the Zim situation and comedy with ideas to move foward as a nation without pointing fingers at zanu pf

Asking what Zimbabwe would do after getting rid of zanu is like asking what the world would do after it got rid of Hiv/Aids, the question is not relevant at the moment, it should be an after thought, because the primary concern is clear
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let him RIP. This platform allows the living to stake their claim on facts.
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: A village boy, Nkomo morphed into one of Africa’s best sons. Not as charming or glamorous as Mandela but he was very special all on his own!
25/10/2016, 12:05 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: *come up not comedy
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+263 71 803 0691‬: Zimbabwe is short of leaders who think and act highmindedly and has got the majority of its citizens seeing good governance as nothing beyond bread and butter issues.
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬:
25/10/2016, 12:06 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I tried to be funny ysday when I posted a clip from Forbidden Kingdom about Two tigers on one mountain and was admonished. That was my point
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Pandora kune chinhu chinonzi priority, what do we do first
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: #Remove the cancer and breath…only then can we be able to assess and evaluate our situation
25/10/2016, 12:07 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: The house is on fire and you are talking about good leaders.
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: we hv leaders bt who cn stand against d barel of a gun unless he also b armed n shielded?
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Quench the fire first or you burn inside
25/10/2016, 12:08 PM – Dziva Mawere: 👍👍👍This is proving impossible on this platform. No wonder why one little guy has had 36 years of fun at Statehouse
25/10/2016, 12:10 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Mandela is nowhere near Nkomo friend…Mandela is artificial. ..a product of White South Africans when they realised change was inevitable. So please dont ever compare my leader with Mandela. He was a good person and progressive and he saw the bigger picture…but Nkomo had to wear a dress to run away from Robert. How is that 😡😡😡
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – Dziva Mawere: Nkomo died a VP in Mugabe’s crew. He ran his race and we can’t change the facts of history.
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+263 73 374 9474‬: Missed the topic of today
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Take note we got CIOs in our midst
25/10/2016, 12:11 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: We need a transition in which economic decisions are made using business ethics and not along political lines but zanu pf won’t allow it, they want to have control of everything and anything for the sake of just being in control, they aren’t empathetic, in fact in Zimbabwe today there is some form of apartheid, we have a superior class, your kasukuweres, Obert mpofus etc, so the way l see it the first and only move is to remove zanu pf
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: You’re entitled to your own opinion but not facts.
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+44 7481 818249‬: Didn’t you just say you are under 36 years old? Can you honestly make these comparisons? And to what aim? How is this even relevant to anything. Robin Williams wore a dress as Mrs Doubtfire, is he perhaps better than Mandela?
25/10/2016, 12:12 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: MM your class is very loud today😁
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Mabox i cnt seperate economics n politics
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+263 77 328 4005‬: Who do u propose to lead that transition?
25/10/2016, 12:13 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Mr Mawere i saw you on Channel 405 i was happy that you were on the panel lists. However i was very shocked and dissapointed with some of your views, Mugabe is not a little men. If he was little you would not be crying about your SMM that you lost, like it or not he has made himself a demigod because of people like you naan Zvobgo ivavo who delayed in confronting him muchidya naye muchifara, pamakatorerwa zvinhu hanzi mavara azara ivhu. Dont lie to people Mugabe is not a simple man you are lying.
25/10/2016, 12:14 PM – Dziva Mawere: Before we talk about transition, has it occurred to you that real lessons about good statecraft and governance are easily lost to endless opinions about a person rather than a system
25/10/2016, 12:14 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Why not the Chinese do it, they don’t like America but it’s still their biggest debtor
25/10/2016, 12:15 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How do you change the system if the head of the system prefers it the way it is, l say in such a case remove the head
25/10/2016, 12:15 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Lol…yes I am😁. Are u seriously saying I am not supposed to know these things? I have been fortunate to be exposed to most cultures, races and tribes…speak 7 languages including #foullanguage🙂
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Pandora you are agreeing the solution is to remove Zanu pf first then you can do what you are suggesting.
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: So yes. ..I know how a black Zimbabwean and a white Zimbabwean vs a South African vs a Btitish think
25/10/2016, 12:16 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Does anyone like America?
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – Dziva Mawere: Indeed let us set up a forum to talk about Mugabe’s shortcomings and see whether his absence will deliver a better promise than constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Yes
25/10/2016, 12:17 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We cant talk about our constitution with Mugabe at the helm.
25/10/2016, 12:18 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Not Mugabe the Zanu Pf system must be removed mr Mawere
25/10/2016, 12:18 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅✅✅,that would be idealistic
25/10/2016, 12:19 PM – Dziva Mawere: Mugabe is not the constitution
25/10/2016, 12:19 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: So…when is Zimbabwe uniting against evil
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: He doesn’t have respect for it. He runs a house of thugs and thieves MM
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Ideally he is civil servant but as things stand he is a demi God, zanu made him into one
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 73 374 9474‬: As long a politics remains a career we won’t go anywhere. That’s the mistake we made in 1980. (We now have professional MPs, ministers etc). As long as that mentality remains we are stuck!
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: Mugabe is the Supreme Leader he does not care about the constitution and so are his Ministers and government.
25/10/2016, 12:20 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅
25/10/2016, 12:21 PM – Munya 1873: 👏🏿👏🏿
25/10/2016, 12:21 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I want a white Person to lead the NTA
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: @263772573823 it’s now mvengemvenge here a hotchpotch of political ideas
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: It took a few hours to arrest Evan mawarire over unconfirmed allegations that he had stolen a police button stick, yet it’s been weeks the anti corruption commission has declared it has evidence Jonathan moyo abused public funds yet he is walking Scott free
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – Dziva Mawere: Because we don’t care as shown here about understanding what constitutionalism is all about.
25/10/2016, 12:22 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Class is loud today
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – Dziva Mawere: In what capacity do you make this wish?
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 1. Constitutional right
25/10/2016, 12:23 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are confirming the opposite of constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+27 71 968 0215‬: @ Mr Mawere with your clout, intelligence and abilities you should be helping Zimbabweans how to to remove Zanu pf . Encouraging youth to vote so as to change things kwete these SMM please we neef your voice.
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Kkkkkkki this also wrong it shouldn’t be about color, it should be about merit
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 2. I don’t trust a Gandanga
25/10/2016, 12:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: Then let the call be made to a platform that needs it.
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – ‪+263 71 803 0691‬: Is that MM’s duty or everyone’s including you?
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – Dziva Mawere: That is why we are trying to use real and hard facts to show that under Mugabe the promise of independence was betrayed by real conduct
25/10/2016, 12:25 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: 3. We can erase the myth of racism just like that!
25/10/2016, 12:26 PM – Dziva Mawere: We set up a group to coalesce views around facts and what do we surrender to?
25/10/2016, 12:26 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: Why white if I may ask
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: I think what he meant is mm being a public figure, his voice might be a little louder than ours however it doesn’t alleviate any of us from responsibility
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are encouraging a fruitless enterprise with no destination
25/10/2016, 12:27 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: People are angry and emotional that’s all. Apologies
25/10/2016, 12:28 PM – Dziva Mawere: We need a voice that speaks to shared values rather than expecting me to be another Mugabe with a sharp tongue when none is required to inspire hope.
25/10/2016, 12:28 PM – Dziva Mawere: You are not people but an individual. Let us not behave as animals.
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Really now…plz dont burden this man…he has suffered the wrath of Robert. We can’t do this to him. We …the born free generation my vote ZanuPf out of power
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Mutumwa we nid yo as an influential leader
25/10/2016, 12:29 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: How do you tell your little son or daughter every morning to work hard in school because it pays off when you have three degrees but you are selling harurwa and masawu to make a living

Nxa zanu pf has stolen more than our constitutional rights, it has destroyed our hopes and dreams
25/10/2016, 12:30 PM – Munya 1873: It’s not who votes that matters it’s who counts the votes who matters in Zim .
25/10/2016, 12:31 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: MM would you be President?
25/10/2016, 12:31 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Yeah neh😏…almost forgot
25/10/2016, 12:32 PM – Dziva Mawere: I have facts that can be shared so that the opposition is not reduced to making slogans.
25/10/2016, 12:33 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: We don’t want an oppositin. We need a united front to remove ZanuPf
25/10/2016, 12:34 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: If u the champion of that…u got my vote
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – Dziva Mawere: That is a wrong question. We need to appreciate that prescripts of the constitution in terms of Presidential Powers and not get a successor who is like Mugabe and pisses on all the people with impunity.
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – Morelife: Then if you remove ZANU PF how will it help Zimbabwe and yourself
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: ✅
25/10/2016, 12:35 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Priority is removin zanu pf then …..we wl deal with the aftermath wn we gt there
25/10/2016, 12:36 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: Fresh start, how is keeping zanu pf helping the masses???
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: Wel said Pandora.
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – Morelife: Dont you think its a dangerous dream that will bring our country to Libya way
25/10/2016, 12:37 PM – Wildfire 1873: https://soundcloud.com/the-1873-network-962541670/interrogating-the-executive-order-3
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – Dziva Mawere: You got valid observations and we need to raise awareness of the true intended role of a constitutional President. An imperial head of state is not provided for in the constitution. How do we educate even Mugabe and his Justice cluster that when the facts of SMM are examined, Mugabe should not be near any government office.
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – ‪+263 73 344 2739‬: No libya.hw is keeping zanu helpim anyone?
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – ‪+263 77 419 9018‬: You like corruption, thieving, unemployment, bond notes, poor education system, underpaid civil service, drought year every year because of poor farming practices,

Saka chakanakira zanu chii nhai???
25/10/2016, 12:38 PM – Dziva Mawere: We can only unite on values based on shared facts. Which option you seem determined not to realise
25/10/2016, 12:39 PM – Dziva Mawere: I don’t deserve your vote but your patience to allow facts to take us somewhere
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – Dziva Mawere: There are failed careers that started in 1980 wanting to remove ZANU-PF without realising that it is just a construct and the real action takes place in the name of government where the resources of the people are privatised. There is no word in the constitution that talks of ZANU-PF being entitled to limit your rights and freedom. Let us refuse to chase shadows.
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – Shingai Ndoro: It’s now time wasting and energy sapping. Debilitating!
25/10/2016, 12:42 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Lybia did not remove Gaddafi…America did…and Zim is worse than Lybia right now
25/10/2016, 12:44 PM – ‪+263 77 234 2053‬: Very true
25/10/2016, 12:45 PM – ‪+27 78 948 9362‬: Am following
25/10/2016, 12:48 PM – Dziva Mawere: And exhausting
25/10/2016, 12:49 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: I do agree with some arguments here and there is a lot we can learn considering our zim experience on property rights, freedom of expression n all. The question is, have we really leant anything yet n how has that influenced our decisions? Forums like these are good but without action plan it remains academic without any tangible result. If we really love our country we should go beyond an awareness of our problems but solution to our problems n get boots down in reviving the dead.
25/10/2016, 12:53 PM – Morelife: Very true because we will remove a system and replace it with rhe system in a different name. Rather lets research on how did we build the so called demigods then come up with solutions on destroying it and come up with a fool proof system for the good of our kids and their kids
25/10/2016, 12:55 PM – Morelife: What proof do we have that if we rwmove ZANU PF we wont replace it with a zanu pf in another name
25/10/2016, 12:55 PM – Dziva Mawere: But I am sure you will agree that we need a glue to bind us. We need to consolidate our views based on facts. Allow facts to give motion
25/10/2016, 12:57 PM – Dziva Mawere: ZANU-PF is a club of members whose activities without its actors being in government will be inconsequential yet we who believe in constitutionalism allows a non issue to dominate conversations. We need to make government actors accountable for their role in government and not a party of members.
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – Adv T Mavula: Following the discussions going on in the forum I am tempted to say we are losing the objectives gradually. Everyone has an opinion as to what is Zimbabwe’s problem some similar and some diverse. We all know the causes of Zimbabwean problems imagined and real…

How government is supposed to change and who should come in to lead we can debate forever.

Now understand this bit if you will…the focus of FOSMM is to strengthen the institutions whether under Mugabe or after….whether its possible now or not is another matter but our thrust and indeed the aim of this platform is to pursue that trajectory. How and who or when gvt has to change to who is not a core issue of this discourse .

Systems and individuals change but institutions remain and they have to be strengthened to safeguard against the current quagmire.

Our approach is simple…we have taken the SMM case study to make references and take lessons in the attempt to discuss and build stronger institutions.

I implore us all to stand guided accordingly lest we turn this platform into something and duplicates every other platform we are on. We come with different issues we want to share but they may not be necessarily appropriate here. The agenda is already set in the objectives and anything outside that isn’t democracy but a blatant disregard of what FOSMM stands for.

Good Day

Adv T Mavula
(Chair FOSMM)
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – ‪+263 77 271 0487‬: Agreed, hope we will find one another and focus on those things that will help us create a system we want n a better Zimbabwe for all
25/10/2016, 12:59 PM – Shingai Ndoro: I have issued the same caution since yesterday.
25/10/2016, 1:00 PM – Dziva Mawere: When we are disciplined and focused, no human giant will stand against facts
25/10/2016, 1:04 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: Point taken👆🏽👆🏽👆🏽
25/10/2016, 1:05 PM – Adv T Mavula: If you are new and need clarity on the journey that you have joined feel free to engage with myself or any older member so we can move on e same plane and understanding or visit us at www.fosmm.org or follow on twitter @FriendsOfSMM
25/10/2016, 1:05 PM – ‪+263 77 248 6483‬: Zvobgo!!! This is the guy who crafted the executive president which turned Mugabe into a demi devil…he thoughtbhe will replace Mugabe..
25/10/2016, 1:06 PM – ‪+27 79 517 5356‬: I hope you been listening to the chairman.
25/10/2016, 1:06 PM – Adv T Mavula: Or like our Facebook page Friends of Shabanie Mashaba Mines Holdings Pvt Ltd
25/10/2016, 1:09 PM – Raphael 1873: Good Afternoon Comrades, My name is Raphael Moyo, a Friend oF SMM and a person who is working on our website called www.fosmm.org. Please go to the website browse through, register and advise how best we can build our platform to invest through sharing of experiences on issues related to the role that the state and non-state actors including firms, institutions and their actors can play in delivering the promise of inclusive, caring, prosperous, sustainable and progressive human societies.
25/10/2016, 1:12 PM – Raphael 1873: As Adv Thuto has already said above, we have a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Friends-of-SMM-Holdings-Pvt-Ltd-747832045358920/ and our twitter page: https://twitter.com/FriendsofSMM. Please Like those pages and share.
25/10/2016, 1:13 PM – Dziva Mawere: @raphael have you posted the extradition papers and the affidavits of February 2004 on the FOSMM website to use as reference. Also include the documents prepared for Justice Kriegler
25/10/2016, 1:18 PM – Adv T Mavula: *IMPORTANT NOTICE*

Be hereby advised that the FOSMM Executive has decided to approach the courts and prosecute legal legal action in the name of FOSMM flowing from the discussions that have been happening on this and other related platforms since inception. There has been input and debate via the Radio 1873FM that has also motivated this move. The form and substance of the proceedings will be discussed and shared in due course.

Be sure to participate in this discussion starring at 14:00hr this afternoon by tuning in to www.the1873fm.com

Let your voice be heard!

Chair (FOSMM)
25/10/2016, 1:19 PM – Dziva Mawere: 👋🏾👋🏾👋🏾👋🏾
25/10/2016, 1:23 PM – Norman FOSMM: 71 Property rights
(1) In this section—
“pension benefit” means a pension, annuity, gratuity or similar allowance which is payable—
(a) to any person from the Consolidated Revenue Fund;
(b) in respect of a person’s service with an employer;
(c) in respect of a person’s ill-health or injury; or
(d) in respect of a person’s retirement through age or ill-health or any other reason;
and includes a commutation of such a pension, annuity, gratuity or allowance and a refund of contributions
paid towards such a pension, annuity, gratuity or allowance;
“property” means property of any description and any right or interest in property.
(2) Subject to section 72, every person has the right, in any part of Zimbabwe, to acquire, hold, occupy, use,
transfer, hypothecate, lease or dispose of all forms of property, either individually or in association with others.
(3) Subject to this section and to section 72, no person may be compulsorily deprived of their property except
where the following conditions are satisfied—
(a) the deprivation is in terms of a law of general application;
(b) the deprivation is necessary for any of the following reasons—
(i) in the interests of defence, public safety, public order, public morality, public health or town
and country planning; or
(ii) in order to develop or use that or any other property for a purpose beneficial to the community;
(c) the law requires the acquiring authority—
(i) to give reasonable notice of the intention to acquire the property to everyone whose interest or
right in the property would be affected by the acquisition;
(ii) to pay fair and adequate compensation for the acquisition before acquiring the property or
within a reasonable time after the acquisition; and
(iii) if the acquisition is contested, to apply to a competent court before acquiring the property,
or not later than thirty days after the acquisition, for an order confirming the acquisition;
(d) the law entitles any person whose property has been acquired to apply to a competent court for the
prompt return of the property if the court does not confirm the acquisition; and
(e) the law entitles any claimant for compensation to apply to a competent court for the determination
of— (i) the existence, nature and value of their interest in the property concerned;
(ii) the legality of the deprivation; and
(iii) the amount of compensation to which they are entitled;
and to apply to the court for an order directing the prompt payment of any compensation.
(4) Where a person has a vested or contingent right to the payment of a pension benefit, a law which provides
for the extinction or diminution of that right is regarded, for the purposes of subsection (3), as a law providing for
the compulsory acquisition of property.
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: Good start
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Dziva Mawere: How do we frame the questions?
25/10/2016, 1:24 PM – Norman FOSMM: 12 Forfeiture or vesting in State of rights held by culpable persons
(1) The administrator shall cancel or nullify any share, right or interest in or claim upon a company under reconstruction purportedly held by a culpable person which was obtained by or resulted from any fraud committed by the culpable person.
(2) Any share, right or interest in or claim upon a company under reconstruction held by a culpable person that is not a share, right or interest in or claim upon the company referred to in subsection (1) and which properly vests in a culpable person shall, with effect from the date he or she becomes a culpable person in terms of section 9(8), vest in the State, which, in consideration therefor, shall apply the same by way of set-off towards discharging the culpable person’s liability for any or all of the debts and liabilities of the company.
(3) The administrator may, in accordance with a scheme of reconstruction—
(a) consolidate or redivide any shares referred to in subsection (2) into any number of shares of any denomination equivalent to the true or fair value of the shares previously held by the culpable person;
(b) convert any right, interest or claim referred to in subsection (2) into shares equal in value to the true or fair value of the right, claim or interest previously held by the culpable person;
and the shares resulting from the exercise of the administrator’s powers under paragraph (a) or (b) shall be issued to the State.
25/10/2016, 1:25 PM – Norman FOSMM: peruse section 71 of the constitution and cmpare it with section 12 of the RECON ACT
25/10/2016, 1:27 PM – Norman FOSMM: @MDM….What is it that that was robbed from you under the auspices of the RECON ACT….
25/10/2016, 1:32 PM – Dziva Mawere: Should it be about me or the principles of constitutionalism
25/10/2016, 1:40 PM – Norman FOSMM: wanted to open minds…..using the practical situation of SMM
25/10/2016, 1:41 PM – Dziva Mawere: Let us start with the proper role of public office bearers in a constitutional democratic order.
25/10/2016, 1:49 PM – Norman FOSMM: 86 Limitation of rights and freedoms
(1) The fundamental rights and freedoms set out in this Chapter must be exercised reasonably and with due regard
for the rights and freedoms of other persons.
(2) The fundamental rights and freedoms set out in this Chapter may be limited only in terms of a law of general
application and to the extent that the limitation is fair, reasonable, necessary and justifiable in a democratic
society based on openness, justice, human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all
relevant factors, including—
(a) the nature of the right or freedom concerned;
(b) the purpose of the limitation, in particular whether it is necessary in the interests of defence, public
safety, public order, public morality, public health, regional or town planning or the general
public interest;
(c) the nature and extent of the limitation;
(d) the need to ensure that the enjoyment of rights and freedoms by any person does not prejudice the rights
and freedoms of others;
(e) the relationship between the limitation and its purpose, in particular whether it imposes greater restrictions
on the right or freedom concerned than are necessary to achieve its purpose; and
(f) whether there are any less restrictive means of achieving the purpose of the limitation.
25/10/2016, 1:49 PM – Raphael 1873: Extraditions papers can be found on: http://fosmm.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/EXTRADITION-PAPERS.pdf
25/10/2016, 1:53 PM – Norman FOSMM: CONSTITUTIONALISM_…..the first question that arises is whether or not the limitation contained within the RECON ACT remains constitutional or falls within the limit provided for in terms of s86 of the constitutional?

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